Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
General => Chatter => Topic started by: Twenty4Seven on March 18, 2012, 07:57:26 PM
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What the feck's up with the VOD site? I can't log on and it seems to be infested with ever more advertising crap, iframes that are broken and now these pop-ups. I'd rather pay for a site that works than have to put up with all that crap.
Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr >:( >:( >:(
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All seems to have started with the new adverts,im now down to 2 clicks from 4 to go back but im getting the pop ups as well now!
I dont object to all the various fund raising ideas but i would like to see an upgrade at the end of it
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I think Paddy's aiming to become the first .veg billionaire.
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Or *gulp* we start our own independent forum?
I'm not sure my little machine running this place is up to the traffic a decent forum would throw at it, we might have to start paying for hosting but I suspect a periodic donation drive would cover something like one of these, and avoid all this advertising rubbish we all hate:
http://www.5quidhost.co.uk/hosting.php
http://www.domainmonster.com/web-hosting/
(many others available)
I can imagine it now, if we had control over the administration then there's no reason why there couldn't be a "wiki editors" member group on an independent forum that automatically grants login and edit permissions on the wiki here. That'd be pretty sweet :)
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This'll make you laugh.... I can't log into the VOD site any more. When I try, I get this....
Sorry, the username/password you have entered appears to be incorrect.
Please press the back button on your browser now, and try again.
Hahaha! press the back button .......... how may times??
Tony, if you need cash to set up hosting for a forum on here, I'll chuck in a tenner. Well worth it to be free of that crap on VOD.
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I appreciate that. You're also not the first to make such an offer, which suggests some level of dissatisfaction at the operation of VOD. I think we've all asked there for some forum upgrading, and several people have even offered to assist with this in the past, but nothing ever seems to come of it.
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I'll weigh in a bit now.
One of the things that actually attracted me to this site rather than VOD etc was that the discussion was sensible and ratified.
I found VOD to have far too many members of the view "This is how I've always done it, some bloke told me it works this way and it seems to work for me, so it must be right"
Where as the members I've encountered so far here want to understand the information and either give some proof or are accepting of test results and chemical proof.
Tony - a way to get started on funding for hosting of forums / wiki would be to setup a sticky in the forums with a link to a paypal donation. Also can add a little message in the border area at the top of the wiki itself, asking for donations in order to help the wiki, again taking you to the same paypal donation system. I'd suggest setting up a specific BioPowered e-mail and paypal and can then post balance of said account for members. If it starts having decent sums rolling in and out could even then look at a separate BioPowered Bank account.
I know I'd certainly donate a modest sum out of my own pocket if/when it should prove needed to run a nice smooth and free service.
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Biopowered as it stands runs on a machine used for other things, so hosting is effectively free, and the only cost is the domain name which I am quite happy to donate indefinitely (trivial cost).
I'm not sure this would scale to a fully blown, busy forum, as the bandwidth would likely to get beyond the background level that this site currently consumes.
I believe I speak for all the admin here when I say that we strongly support a not-for-profit model and loathe advertising, so if we ever got into funding via donations then transparency would be an absolute must. Unfortunately VOD lacks this transparency, and funding appears to fall into a "it's for the hosting" black hole without any accountability. There's nothing wrong with that, after all VOD forum is part of Paddy's business and no accountability is required. I think it's just that the skinflint in me doesn't like the idea of anyone profiteering from a community pretty much entirely dedicated to saving money, and that little ever seems to happen to improve the resource shared by the community (in VODs case, a community funded forum that hangs off a business).
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Well i like the VOD although the lack of updates is annoying but it is Paddys and we are just guests i suppose,i am also probably one of the worst for posting non technical threads and comments but i enjoy the banter.
I have absolutely zero knowledge on the chemistry side,the part i enjoy and am reasonably useful at is the building side and i would be altering my processor every week if it wasnt for the small matter of having to make the stuff occasionally
The VOD contains a wealth of archived knowledge which would be lost to any new forum and i imagine the idea would go down like a lead balloon with some,having said that i would support any new forum ran by members here if it mirrored the attitude of the VOD
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Show me a fence and I'll sit on it ...
I've sympathy with most of what's been said above.
I regret my inability to understand even the basics of chemistry and I'm eternally grateful to those who offer help in this and other areas.
I thoroughly enjoy the banter on the VOD, in my humble opinion a sense of humour and a little fun in life is vitally important. That said, I think the VOD goes a over the top on occasions and it seems more like I'd imagine Face book to be than a platform for disseminating information on Biofuels.
Ross, I don't know if you've yet met anyone from the wiki or the VOD, but a lot of members meet up annually at Chug's field for the "BBB" and the "VA" organised by Nigelb. You really couldn't hope to meet a nicer bunch of reprobates and it's largely from these gatherings, along with occasional face to face meets, that the banter springs.
I tend to agree with Tony regarding the transparency of the VOD. To that end I've posted asking Paddy some direct questions, but unfortunately received no direct answers, so I'm not sure what to make of the situation.
With regard to Biopowered, I agree 100% with Tony's comments regarding advertising and transparency, that was one of the nice things about setting it up, the three of us were all singing from the same hymn sheet with regards to its it's aims and aspirations ... just a shame we didn't have the forethought to ban smilies! There may come a time when funding is necessary and I think that bridge should be crossed with care, thought, and an open mind, along with the multiple ownership issue ... we're still relying on Tony retaining his sanity for the wikis existence!
However small, I do think it's reasonable for Tony to share the current costs, and I'm more than happy to contribute
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Well if you factor in the domain registration the running cost here comes out at £3.35 per year. Something I feel I've been paid back many times over by the generosity of members of the community, one way or another.
As for my sanity, I'm touched you credit me with any to start off with!
Very much agree on multiple ownership. At the moment any of the admin can take a backup of the forum and wiki to store off-site. From which, anyone versed in the basics of setting up a php/mysql system on a server should be able to easily recreate what we have here.
The only thing we don't have multiple access to is the holding/paying for the domain name - hopefully I won't be stepping in front of any busses anytime soon.
If we did go for any larger venture then I think shared access to both the hosting provider and domain name registrar would be the way to go.
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Well, I'll pay next year then.
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Here we go again..... this time criteo.com. It's really gone beyond a joke now.
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It is, at the end of the day Paddy's site, we just use it, so he's every right to do what he likes with it.
I think the problem comes in that many are so fond of / addicted to it, that we consider it "ours"!
I've asked direct questions about the running / financing of the site, but got no answers. Again, that's Paddy's prerogative, it information personal to him / his business.
I think the danger comes in that, without members, the forum has no commercial value in terms of advertising and if enough members get put off and traffic falls, the revenue rasing value falls. It's a shame Paddy isn't a little more open with the members. If he were, I'm sure he'd get considerable assistance from the many "techies" we have. That way he could generate income without teeing too many people off.
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I enjoy the banter on VOD, but I must say some members attitude does stink at times.
The off topic cracks annoy the heck out of me, especially when someone wants a literal answer not a load of bull manure..
Is this the beginning of the end for VOD , time will tell..
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It's a big friendly forum, with rather nice community spirit where everyone helps everyone else (such a rare thing this day and age), so I'm pretty sure it's there to stay, even if a few of us aren't keen on the way it's run.
But yes, you could say that the signal to noise ratio isn't great...
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Patrick reckons he doesn't make any money from the forum and it actually costs him to run it (although he encourages people to click the ad links to ebay etc!) but he won't let people who offer to help update and stop pop ups etc.
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Maybe that's because his hosting is excessively expensive? If he switched hosts then he wouldn't need to keep the funding levels so high to run it.
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If I'm honest...I'm a bit fed up with the VOD. So much so that i only check in "invisible" to see if I have messages. Some folk on there really piss me off.
Nige
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I'm starting to feel the same way and I suspect others are too. Seems to be moving a bit off track, being treated a little like a sales arena by some and the adverts are horribly big brotherish.
It might be that it's holiday season, but I get the impression that it's slowing down a bit.
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I quite like that the "experiment with it" types seem to be congregating here slowly anyway. VOD seems to have bit of a reputation for experienced members putting down new ideas quickly if they are not the traditional way things have always been done. Half the joy in fuel making is experimentation, we should encourage it even if there is a good possibility it'll fail - just for the few times when it doesn't and we learn something new.
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I must agree that VOD is getting to be a soap box for certain members "its my way or the highway"
One of the "old" members who I've met is at times a pita with his cocky attitude, shame as his "kit" is excellent.
IMO if you don't try new things you get nowhere, we wouldn't be making Bio if someone hadn't tried, not only that its part of the "fun" for me :)
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I dont know if its the time of year but to me its like a graveyard on the VOD at the moment,nothing really bio or veg related,just people flogging things and the same ones using it as some kind of google-how can i move this or clean that
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I dont know if its the time of year but to me its like a graveyard on the VOD at the moment,nothing really bio or veg related,just people flogging things,what i did today threads (as if i care!) and the same ones using it as some kind of google-how can i move this or clean that
Lucky I chose to ask Jules direct about a little problem on the Disco, otherwise you'd be grumbling about that post too!
Top man Jules. His solution to a replacement IP not working was to take a hammer (described on a thread he found as Land Rover special tool number 1) to a box of electronics attached thereon. It worked a treat!
That's the sort of car mechanics I like!
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Ive got nowt against asking for a solution to a problem,but cant see the point in saying what your going to do today and then rushing in every hour to type it out
Today im going to have a dump,i will keep you updated!
That's actually one of my gripes, I feel, on occasions, that the VOD is becoming a bit of a car repairs forum. That's really why I contacted Jules direct. I'd have felt a little hypocritical posting another Discovery help question, not withstanding it would have laid myself open to more digs from the Discophobes.
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Its a hard one,i think its the same people or the same question being repeated thats annoying ie ring gumming,ive never asked a car repair question as far as i can remember but if something goes wrong i probably would,but as it would be my first one i would'nt feel guilty and i would have used the search button first
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In all fairness someone did create a "General Car Repairs" section on VOD. There are hundreds of forums that already deal with that kind of thing but I guess people like to ask those they already trust about repairs.
I've posted in the past about my fuel system woes but I think that's all fair game and on topic.
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Hello everyone!
Just thought I'd say hello and tag onto the end of this thread. Last time I checked in here the forum was pretty much empty - I'm pleased to see it filling up!
Yes, VOD annoys me too. I've gone rather quiet on there. I have in the past tried to organise it better and bring it more 'on topic' shall we say. I got crucified, so haven't bothered since.
I'd quite happily chuck in some pennies for a better forum, without adverts.
I'm a member of this one too: www.lr4x4.com (http://www.lr4x4.com). Their model is to have two tiers of membership. Basic non-paid where you are subject to ads, and paid (currently 2 quid per month, or a lump sum every year) which removes the ads as well as getting stickers/t-shirts etc.
For the wealth of information (it's well organised) as well as the build threads of some really gorgeous and ingenious engineering it's well worth the money.
I think it's a good example of how a membership can financially support a well run, and functional forum.
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Well said James.
Tony..do we need to make some sort of contribution for the smooth running of this forum. I'm more than happy to dip my hand in my pocket.
Nige
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I think it's costing Tony £3.35 a year. I've offered to pay next year, so you'll have to join the queue.
From the outset the three original admin agreed that the forum and especially the wiki would never carry adverts or be seen to promote or favour commercial organisations.
We came up with this phrase used on the main page of the wiki ...
This is a non-commercial, non-profit site, run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts, and open to peer review.
I hope this, along with transparent management, sums up the ethos to which most of us subscribe.
It's conceivable the site may need funding in the future, but I think that's a long way off and a bridge which we can sympathetically cross when we come to it.
I feel I should point out that we wouldn't have the site running as smoothly as it does without the skilful efforts of Tony. He seems to breeze through updates, improvements, changes and problems which would take the rest of the admin a life time just to comprehend ... thanks Tony!
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You're very kind but this place is no trouble to maintain really 8)
Absolutely 100% agree that this place should always be free of advertising and never subscriptions to see the "good stuff". Even if it gets really busy and my little server isn't up to it, better hosting doesn't cost much and we could keep it running easily by member donations - which would go a lot further than they seem to on VOD.
Interesting that Jules posted on VOD about lack of posts, I've stopped checking regularly which is very unlike me. It's a bit thin on interesting things recently.
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Bit thin is quite an understatement, I tried to have a bit of a dig a while back about new members selling car, (when I mean new I mean first post car sellers!) Got a good kicking for my troubles!! Seemed to me, bearing in mind I know none of the big fish on VOD, that he was a mate of a moderator so everything was fine especially as it was an old merc.
I do find the one eyed goings on a little annoying!
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Well their loss. Thought your post about indian oil and mucilage and gee was very interesting. Given our historic failures with Chinese oil too, having a chef on board can only be a good thing.
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Todays "todays post" is the shortest ive ever known on the VOD,not sure of the reasons why.
Without getting into the take on the VOD discussion it would be nice if this forum was a little bit busier,just so there were a few replies each day,it seems to go in fits and starts.
I think we need to have a new members drive,im trying to get Nathan to look in and im trying to get RM to post up some of his new veggy ideas
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Just looked and you're right - less than a page. Very odd for summer - there also seems to be very few new sign-ups, given this is "make hay" season for biodiesellers. Perhaps the fierce commercial oil competition is killing the homebrew market, or everyone that wanted to try it has realised it ain't that easy. Could be the homebrew biodieseller is a dying breed (beyond the ridiculously hardcore few members).
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... Thought your post about indian oil and mucilage and gee was very interesting. ...
I must have missed that thread. Is it something we could put on the wiki, we have little information on oil sources and types.
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http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=28094&page=1#pid318283
Should be recorded somewhere in the wiki for posterity.
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Is this something we could test?
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I've wracked my brains with regards to tests on these oils and their emulsion properties, although purely by eye, I am convinced that more emulsification occurs with Indian oils.
I nowadays, with the beautiful no titration method, go from 7% water wash to 20ltre water pump wash (misted in!!) and rarely have any issues with soaps or emulsions. However when Indian oil is used I'm sure I always get a bit of a glupy white layer.
The problems with trying to establish quality tests are the huge variables and time requirements. (is the white stuff soaps or emulsion, oil acidity, heat, time, mineral content of water Agression of the mixing etc etc?!) All a bit beyond shed science, well my shed anyway!
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I used to love reading posts in VOD forum. It has been going down hill for a while. For me RM's departure was the final nail in the coffin :'(
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I've wracked my brains with regards to tests on these oils and their emulsion properties, although purely by eye, I am convinced that more emulsification occurs with Indian oils.
I nowadays, with the beautiful no titration method, go from 7% water wash to 20ltre water pump wash (misted in!!) and rarely have any issues with soaps or emulsions. However when Indian oil is used I'm sure I always get a bit of a glupy white layer.
The problems with trying to establish quality tests are the huge variables and time requirements. (is the white stuff soaps or emulsion, oil acidity, heat, time, mineral content of water Agression of the mixing etc etc?!) All a bit beyond shed science, well my shed anyway!
So this is where you're all hiding!
A good portion of my collection comes from indian takeaways, but I only run on wvo not bio, would this affect me?
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Hi Nigel
Wellcom to the wiki,
what took you so long.
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Hi Nig, great to see you over here, don't think it will make one jot of difference to wvo use!
However have tentatively started research into my theory. So far I have emulsified soya oil, Virginie rape, normal rape, and olive oil all at ambient temps. (Method 50/50 oil to water Blend with stick blender) Once emulsion is formed simply leave to stand. Emulsion with olive oil drops out in an hour soya a bit longer virgin rape still mayo after several days normal rape half split with some emulsion remaining.
Next job is to make bio out of all the different oils and start the emulsion tests over again with glyc. Drained raw bio and then washed bio.
To tell the truth I've ground to a bit of a halt awaiting the out come of Keith and Julian's acid tests. Mine seam a bit pointless if you can negate the problem with acid.
(Something I'm struggling with though is in commercial kitchens we use acid with mustard to enable the emulsification of oil)
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Mine seam a bit pointless if you can negate the problem with acid.
(Something I'm struggling with though is in commercial kitchens we use acid with mustard to enable the emulsification of oil)
I guess it could be because we are dealing with Bio and not oil at this stage.
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Absolutely! But if mucilegens survive processing then the problem still remains. Guess its lucky that most oil we seem to get is ktc soya, ie source from beans not seeds!