Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Vegetable oil motoring => Filter rigs => Topic started by: GedsJeep on September 05, 2015, 12:00:39 AM
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my current set up is...
net curtain.
50m felt bag.
dewater
pump through 10" elements ( 25m + 10m)
felt bag filter through 1m.
each stage has settling inbetween, and every few weeks the bottom of each stage is pumped out and sold.
the car...
om602 engined rexton.
twin tanked
pevekoil solonoid
FPHE that runs between 60 and 80 deg c.
now.
i think 1m is overkill.
the rexton will run on wvo all year round, the twin tank is because i have the kit and because i`m becoming more mechanically sympathetic the older i get.
i have a thermometer on the FPHE and dont switch it over at less than 25 deg c.
so im thinking of giving it a go at 10m this winter. mainly because i wan to reduce my already stretched time in the shed.
any thoughts?
also i`m looking at the polyester filter bags, i`ve heard they are quicker and easier to clean. the felt ones take a bit of drying and can slow the process down. any thoughts on these?
thanks everybody peeps. 8)
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While I do not have a 10 micron I use nylon filter bags, sourced from USA, they are much easier to clean. I squeeze out the crud, turn inside out soak in miss fuel, squeeze out and wash in hot water. Come up like new with just some staining. SWMBO has even put them in the washing machine for me (after I have "cleaned" them).
Only use them for the WVO for the Lister so not as finicky as a car.
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Sounds like it might be easier to make bio!
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nah, theres chemicals ect to take into consideration.
it`s not arduous, i just move oil from one stage to the next, normally through pumps, but the bags have always been a bit of a bug bear.
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How long is it taking you to filter, and what sort of quantity are you looking at?
The biggest revelation for me lately, that seems to be working, is bigger filter bags.
I've got two half pillow cases, suspended in 45 gallon drum. Good oil, I can get 30 litres through each, as fast as I can tip it. They will hold about 40 litres, but the rate at which it goes through slows down after the first 30.
Basically, in a matter of minutes, I can have a 60 litres in the drum, and another 80 that will drain down in a day or so.
Then I put 25 litres through a J cloth, twice, which takes minutes, and settle this with 10% petrol. The final two passes through a J cloth takes minutes, before it goes in the tank.
I could do twice the amount in very little more time, and make it a lot more efficient, but I've no real desire to.
I know I'm not exactly being very technical with the J cloths, I works, just about. It's not quite fltered well enough, I don't think. Something I may do something about in time.
What I would say is, 10m doesn't sound enough to me, I'd say 5 at a minimum, but others may disagree.
Which part of your operation is taking the time? If it's getting it through the 1 mic, I'd be inclined to investigate a very big 1 mic filter bag. I'm sure the filter bag makers would stitch one up for you. Rumour has it, filterbagman on Ebay stitches them up in his garden shed, and is a very tidy sort of a chap.
There is a member here who sells the nylon filterbags, (can't remember who, diysurgeon?) they seem to be gaining a reputation, although I have not used them myself. Maybe give him a try and see if he can get you a larger bag.
I've tried loads of variations of filtering setup. For my money bigger bags, 40 litres upwards, will be a part of any future setups.
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quantity?
probably 4 times what you quoted.
or 5......
at the moment, the 1 mic is taking the time. i use 32" bags x3 so 60L at a time.
but the bags are a bugger to clean and dry so thats why i was thinking of 3 polyester.
also i`m at that time that vegger hate where the temp is a bit up and down.
oil will go through a bag one day and sit in the same bag the following day.
why would 10 micron not be good enough for a hot engine?
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I thought most filters fitted to vehicles were only 10µ anyway.
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I though the vehicle filter was 10mic too, although that's only what I've heard, I've not come across anything definitive. My thinking is, get the oil below the vehicle filter size.
Have you tried scrapping down the sides of the filter bags?
I've had trouble with a layer building up on the surface of the pillowcase. This isn't blocking the filtering capability, it's just acting like a membrane, keeping the oil off the filter. And this is with good oil.
When it's warm, this sludge is more prone to running down the side and into the bottom. When it's cooler, it's just coating the whole thing. By scrapping the sides down, bags what I would have chucked away because they were blocked, are now filter ing a whole load more oil.
The trouble is, those felt filter bags don't lend themselves to doing this, because the surface is furry, and tends to hold the sludge.
Maybe try and get a 5 mic polyester bag that will hold 40 litres. I'm convinced a bigger bag gets the oil through quicker.
Any how, a 100 plus litres a day on a regular basis is outside my experience.
There must be an answer out there though.
I was talking to a couple of guys in a tax station a while ago. They had a tanker with a filter unit on the back. The tanks in the tax station had flooded, and water had got in, so you can imagine what kind of crap would be in that fuel.
They were going to suck it all out, clean the tanks, filter the fuel and pump it back in.
The filter setup had six inch pipes on it.
All they were using was huge bag filters.
I don't recall how many bar it was running at, but it wasn't shocking. Never found out how they were separating the water. Could have talked to them all day, but they had to get on.
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so 5m or 10m.....
this is the question.
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just texed diy surgeon and the bags are polyester felt, so the same as what i have from filterbagman?
now im confused.
i wanted a nylon mesh type. :o
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My choice would be 5 mic.
Looks as though I have made a mistake with the bags then. I was under the impression that diysurgeons were smooth.
Can't help more than that, other than to suggest that you line the bags with a pillowcase/sheet of some sort. Makes a heck of a difference when you come to clean them.
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Gedsjeep, the nylon type ones are sold on ebay by someone calling himself force10skodaboy, I'll see if I can get a link.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sock-filter-bag-1micron-Vegetable-oil-WVO-Biodiesel-/131594107132?hash=item1ea39eb8fc
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I'm pretty certain that is diysurgeon. There was a thread about it on the other channel a while back.
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It's very easy to make your own filter bags. I made some with landscaping fabric many years ago and they are still going strong. There's no reason why you can't do the same thing with fabric of different weaves. Cheap bed sheets for example.
Some talented young chap has put a brilliantly illustrated description of how to make them on the wiki ...
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/e/e6/Sock_filter_diagram.png)
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/thumb/f/f0/Sock_filter_1.JPG/800px-Sock_filter_1.JPG)
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/thumb/a/a6/Sock_filter_2.JPG/800px-Sock_filter_2.JPG)
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/thumb/9/92/Flying_hose_holder_2.JPG/800px-Flying_hose_holder_2.JPG)
I think with filter socks, it's one of the occasions that length that matters. If they are suspended above the liquid level the length will allow a head to be created at the bottom of the filter.
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What sewing machines are you into?
I sews them up wiv me old Singer. Marvellous old things, got two now. When funds allow, I intend forming a choir of them......
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Gedsjeep, the nylon type ones are sold on ebay by someone calling himself force10skodaboy, I'll see if I can get a link.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sock-filter-bag-1micron-Vegetable-oil-WVO-Biodiesel-/131594107132?hash=item1ea39eb8fc
yeah, thats diy surgeon. i was under the mistaken impression that they were polyester, as in the smooth type that greasemonkey mentioned, but it turns out they are polyester felt.
what the difference it between them and filterbagman`s i dont know.
after a lot of digging it seems you can only get nylon mesh down to 10 micron. (easily anyways)
so, again, do i try the nylon mesh and run the car at 10 micron, or buy more felt bags (5 mic) and put up with the akward cleaning.
unless anyone has compared the two types?
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What sewing machines are you into?
I sews them up wiv me old Singer. Marvellous old things, got two now. When funds allow, I intend forming a choir of them......
Not really into sewing machines, me and them have never quite seen eye to eye. For someone who loves all things mechanical and has immense reverence for their complexity and brilliant design, I always manage to somehow bugger them up!
Not sure what the machine is. It's some fancy Japanese thing that does a thousand different stitches, bought for the domestic authorities just after we were married and while I was still under the naive delusion that it would be used to manufacture all the soft furnishings for the house we were renovating.
The reality of the situation was that it got used to make one pair of curtains, since when only I have ever used it!
Oh, if only I knew then what I know now!
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What sewing machines are you into?
I sews them up wiv me old Singer. Marvellous old things, got two now. When funds allow, I intend forming a choir of them......
Not really into sewing machines, me and them have never quite seen eye to eye. For someone who loves all things mechanical and has immense reverence for their complexity and brilliant design, I always manage to somehow bugger them up!
Not sure what the machine is. It's some fancy Japanese thing that does a thousand different stitches, bought for the domestic authorities just after we were married and while I was still under the naive delusion that it would be used to manufacture all the soft furnishings for the house we were renovating.
The reality of the situation was that it got used to make one pair of curtains, since when only I have ever used it!
Oh, if only I knew then what I know now!
Yeah leave it to wifey and buy yourself a big shed instead.
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Ah, I love 'um. Made heaps of stuff, and need to make more. It was the fascination of the mechanical bit that got me into them, then I just had to see what they would do....
If my caravan ever goes up in flames, it'll be sewing machine through the window, followed by my safe, then me.
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oh my....
about 5 miles from me...
http://www.plastok.co.uk/
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oh my....
about 5 miles from me...
http://www.plastok.co.uk/
Looks like they really know what they are talking about. Good find.
That's mega interesting.
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they are my new best friends 8)
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oh my....
about 5 miles from me...
http://www.plastok.co.uk/
Good find. This sounds rather good ...
SORBTEX
Specialist felt SORBTEX ia a new, highly water absorbent fibre made into a yarn which will retain water under pressure and maintain its structure without collapsing. The yarn, which can be a blend of absorbent fibre/viscose/nylon and polyester, will absorb up to fifty times its own weight of water, sidcriminating against non-aqueous liquids. It is a virtually non-hazardous product, exhibiting very low toxicity, and can be used safely against the skin.
PlastOk convert these yarns into woven or knitted fabrics, or accumulate them to for thick tows or ropes. They can also be contained in porous tubes and covers, made into felts or produced in cartridge form for continuous water separatation.
Suggested uses include;
• containment of loose water into handleable packs / form
• blocking of water ingress by sweling and sealing.
• water ingress alarm – swelling creates an increase in air pressure in a confined space / pneumatic alarm.
• swelling creates a conductive path
• swelling activates a mechanical switch
• absorbtion of water – stabilising, preventing out of balance forces (swilling, sloshing)
• control of consendate by absorbtion
absorbtion of water in fuel storage tanks
• water accumulator mats for de-frosting.
Wonder if it would work on Veg oil and bio?
I started looking at coalescing filters but it would seem the only handle free water ... perhaps this is the same.
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Yeah, I saw that too. Reckon it would only absorb free water, but could be wrong.
A small micron metal mesh filter would be really cool. Swill it out, and off to go again.
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they say they will provide a small sample for testing....
list any questions and i`ll head over there.
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A sample of the Sorbtex would be good. I'm sure DGS wouldn't mind running tests with his equipment if it's likely to do more than just free water.
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Filter bags USA
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sewn-Industrial-Filter-Sock-Bags-Water-Liquid-Biodiesel-WVO-Oil-Dust-Fuel-Diesel-/231354514757?var=&hash=item35ddcdbd45
Not used the 10u but as above they are very good for cleaning.
There are others on the site (Didn't pay that shipping cost!)
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I sent my mother off to the charity shop to get some thick duvet covers and turned them into filters
hung them inside 205 litre drums suspended ontop of an IBC so the clean oil drained down into the IBC
each filter used to hold about 200 liters (or something close to that)
it was fantastic... I used to fill them up with a pump and a hose and then forget about them... most of the oil would filter overnight, the rest would filter over a few days
fill the filters and forget about them... a few days later there's 800 liters filtered and ready to use
(I didn't do any other filtering after that, straight into work vans)
if you made yourself a big filter like that, you could filter ~200litres a time through it, and then pump through your other filters... which it should fly through ?
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A sample of the Sorbtex would be good. I'm sure DGS wouldn't mind running tests with his equipment if it's likely to do more than just free water.
No problem, would be interesting stuff.
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they say they will provide a small sample for testing....
list any questions and i`ll head over there.
I'd be interested to know pretty much the same as you. A ball park figure for a filter that would hold 40 odd litres of wvo, Maybe to sit atop a 45 gallon drum, and perhaps 6 inches deep. Something good and strong with will take a bit of a battering, maybe with 10mic and another with 5 mic holes.
Ask them about corrugated stuff, lot more holes per area.
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ok.
i was going to ask about nylon till you mentioned the steel mesh.
quick blast with warm water and away again.
but the nylon is squeezeoutable.....
tell you what, unless its gazillions of quids it could turn filtering on its head. ;D
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I reckon a steel mesh at tiny microns is going to be awful expensive.
Could be wrong, but it just strikes me as being pretty labour intensive and fiddly to make. Like, how do they make the holes, then coat them in whatever protective coating they use, and still keep holes that small accurate?
Different story with a bigger hole, because the thickness of the coating is not such a great proportion of the hole size. Possibly why fabric is so much more popular.
Worth asking though.
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5 micron nylon @1% open is 78 quid sqm.
6 micron nylon @5% open is 72 quid sqm
sorbtex is like rocking horse shit and they can t give samples of that.
so, how many bags could you get out of a square metre?
and the micron rated steel was telephone numbers.
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By my calculations, if you cut it in half, you get two bags, at approx 42 litres each, so four bags at 20 litres. So a shade less than £20 a bag.
Then you gotta make them, which isn't gonna be super expensive, nor very fiddly really, but it will loose a bit of volume.
I have been working in the blistering sun all day, so I wouldn't bet the house on my calcs.
Good effort getting the info. Tidy.
Shame about the mesh being crazy money.
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Some people cut 3 or 4 holes into a top of a barrel and put 32 inch sock filters into each. This might help speed things up. Also filter bags are not 100% efficient they range from 80 to 90%. That's why I double filter my oil to one micron. Yes I am " Force10skodaboy" n the bay. I don't use the nylon bags but smallest micron nylon bags I have are 100 micron. It is possible to get 10 micron but delivery time could be about 4 weeks.
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i have 4 socks of that (or close enough) length. the bugbear is the cleaning.
when the socks are new they filter great, but unless you wash them, you can never fully clean them. so, each subsequent batch is done through a partially blocked sock. also when you wash them they can take 24 hrs to dry, losing a days filtering.
thats why i thought of a nylon mesh, as it "should" be easier to clean.
perhaps you could compare for us?
secondly, what is the difference between polyester felt and the "other felt" as seen on eblag.
thirdly, how many bags would you be able to get from 1sqm?
fourthly, what would you charge to make bags if materials were supplied?
finally, how much would the 10 micron nylon bags be?
Thanks and sorry for all the questions.
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Have you ever tried petrol to wash them with. Methanol works great on the ones used for bio.
Diysurgeon, I bought a 0.5 micron sock off you @ 3 years ago, it works great. I always thought it was a sort of nylon material it was made from.
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just went and did that now, but misfuel is valuable up here......
cleaned them up a treat, thanks.
now i just need to work out what im buying next......
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spoke to these people today.
http://www.alliedfilter.co.uk/
much more helpful.
size 2 bags (7"x32") in 5 micron nylon mesh would be £30 per bag. now i was prepared to pay that, but it seems they wont last. they get a bit fragile the tighter the weave.
the 15 micron steel mesh would also break down over a particularly short period.
so i asked about the difference in polyester felt and standard felt.
the standard has more particle retention than the polyester.
nope, i didnt know either.
what we will see with the polyester felt is a "caking" of the inside as the crud forms a layer. with the standard felt a lot more is absorbed into the fibres of the felt.
they can supply direct, but diysurgeons prices are better.
so, its either 10 micron mesh or 5 micron polyester.
hmm
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Hi
I don't make the filters myself but import them in fairly large numbers. I will get some 10 micron nylon mesh ones to test with my next order, which will be in about four weeks. The cost of these is a lot more than the normal polyester felt. They would be in the region of £12 each.
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just gone for some of mikes polyester felt 5 micron 32" jobs.
can get some work done then 8)
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Dgs - the 0.5 micron filters I sell are the polyester felt ones.
Another way to clean them is turn them inside out and pour warm water through them. The disadvantage is you have to let them drip dry.
With my filters I made a "cap" for them so it's is possible to pump the oil through them under pressure. This will quicken the filtering process. I put pictures of this on the other site a few years ago. I Came up with this as I pumpp my oil from barrel to barrel and on occasion left it unattended to return with oil all over the floor!! At least with the cap it stops the oil from overflowing out of the bags.
This is an old version, I have since change the design so you don't need all the bolts.
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I was always under the impression that it was a bad idea to pressure filter through socks because the pliable nature of them means you could end up opening the holes in the bags to bigger than what they are meant to be (10 micron etc)
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been busy so i couldnt reply.
got these the other day thanks to mike and havent really had chance to test them fully.
as i use a lot of oil a week (48L dontcherknow :-X ) my final drum is a 210L that i pump into four cubbies at a time, then fill the drum up again (or the filters as has been the case ) so its full for the next time....
now normally i refill the filters with a 40LPM pump, and the three of them are left to run through till the next day.
i hung one of mikes up and turned the pump on........
and filled it half way......
then turned it off.
i turned it off because it filtered all 80L without filling more than half way......
so in 2 mins i had filtered 80L of oil through one 5 micron sock.
i nearly rang mike to check they werent 100 micron by mistake....
so i did this a few times to dirty the filters and really tried to test them...
and couldnt...
they didnt really block and the one that did i washed in petrol and did exactly the same again......
so, the stitching looks good, the felt inside was like normal felt and the outside was like the same feel as a blown 10" element.
they were thinner than the normal felt, so were easier to clean out and wash with petrol.
overall im pretty impressed and would quite happily buy some more.
i`ll pop back in a few weeks as i have a load to get ready for a holiday so will really be putting them to the test...
Ged.
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ok, i had to do it.....
i rang mike....just to make sure....
i went in the shed again and 100L whizzed through so fast that i just had to check.
i`m really impressed with these filters. they are thinner than the standard felt ones, so easier to clean and dry, the flow rate is brilliant.
cant recommend them enough.
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I should have piped up earlier, but it's only just sprung to mind ... try looking at screen printing mesh.
I think that's nylon and it's incredibly fine. Not sure on price though.
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cheers, but ive found my answer.
mikes bags really are brilliant.
i brought 60L home friday.
i always leave it in the garden for a few days so that it is at ambient temp (all my customers keep the oil indoors for me)
i pumped it into a bag yesterday and as fast as i was filling the bag, it was running through.
60L filtered in 1 min 30 secs.
im chuffed with that
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Thank goodness you've posted Geds and Julian, I was beginning to think everyone had gone to sleep on here!
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Yes, been a bit quiet.
For my part I've done very little of note in the bio field recently, well, in any field really.
My one recent spectacular achievement was to excel in my chosen area of excellence by making a stupendously good emulsion with 80 ltrs of bio, 15 odd ltrs of glycerin and 5ltrs of water!
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Yes, been a bit quiet.
For my part I've done very little of note.
Ye' so your mrs says, very very little.
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Sounds like she talks more to you than me ... you have my commiserations.
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Sounds like she talks more to you than me ... you have my commiserations.
I have spies everywhere y'know.
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Yes, been a bit quiet.
For my part I've done very little of note in the bio field recently, well, in any field really.
My one recent spectacular achievement was to excel in my chosen area of excellence by making a stupendously good emulsion with 80 ltrs of bio, 15 odd ltrs of glycerin and 5ltrs of water!
Now that does suprise me. If the master can make emulsions what chance have we got.
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Yes, been a bit quiet.
For my part I've done very little of note in the bio field recently, well, in any field really.
My one recent spectacular achievement was to excel in my chosen area of excellence by making a stupendously good emulsion with 80 ltrs of bio, 15 odd ltrs of glycerin and 5ltrs of water!
Now that does suprise me. If the master can make emulsions what chance have we got.
He IS the Master of Emulsions, nothing else.
I don't know what I'm doing wrong but I've never succeeded in making an emulsion.
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I don't know what I'm doing wrong but I've never succeeded in making an emulsion.
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Come on Jim think about it if you dont add water to your bio you will never make an emulsion
as the most experienced settler on here I think you may be having a brain fart.
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Yes, been a bit quiet.
For my part I've done very little of note in the bio field recently, well, in any field really.
My one recent spectacular achievement was to excel in my chosen area of excellence by making a stupendously good emulsion with 80 ltrs of bio, 15 odd ltrs of glycerin and 5ltrs of water!
Now that does suprise me. If the master can make emulsions what chance have we got.
It's actually the second I've managed to make, with glycerin in 170+ batches and of the two, the first I've managed to break.
Made some strange stuff in the process ... a sort of toffee Angle Delight mix and a weird, lumpy soya meat substitute type stuff.
Currently got it back to a fair imitation of a green tinted bio (something to do with a copper processor and lots of acid I think!), with copious amounts of soapy stuff taking ages to settle.
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Yes, been a bit quiet.
For my part I've done very little of note in the bio field recently, well, in any field really.
My one recent spectacular achievement was to excel in my chosen area of excellence by making a stupendously good emulsion with 80 ltrs of bio, 15 odd ltrs of glycerin and 5ltrs of water!
Now that does suprise me. If the master can make emulsions what chance have we got.
He IS the Master of Emulsions, nothing else.
I agree with Jim.
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I agree with Jim.
Bloody 'ell, that's a first.
Are you veeling alright? ? ?
Btw julie I have a couple of 0.5 nozzles for 3mm filament foc if your interested. Pm your address and I'll post'm to you.
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so.........
seeing as i now work 2 miles from home and have an electric bike....
im not using anywhere near the oil i used to.
so i`m looking to streamline again.
the other house had a main sewer in the garden, so i could wash the filter bags in misfuel, drop into hot water then hang up to dry. the water was dosed with caustic and dumped.
no such luxury in this house.
now i havent collected or filtered for a while as i lost mum in november and nursed her to the end. one of my mates collected for me so i kept the collection.
i looked at the filters and they were getting caked, and with nowhere to dispose or clean i came to a bit of a decision.
i buggered off all the filters.
i collect in 60`s as usual then pump into 2 x 210`s through a net curtain.
thats it, nothing else.
Remember my main fuel filter on the car is empty, and i run 2 big red inline filters instead.
so, ive run over a month now, with no discernible difference in the car.
all that bloody money on filter bags over the last 11 years and all that research.
a bloody net curtain.
:o
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Same here ... my circumstances changed about 7 years ago so to keep things simple I started to just drop oil through a bedsheet and then straight into the car. I have been doing it like this ever since and it works fine for me, just a bit slow when the weather gets really cold.
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it was the last cold snap that made my mind up.
filled a bag up, went out next day and oil was still sitting there.
it doesnt get that cold over here and its twin tanked so i took a gamble.