Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
General => Alternative heat and power => Topic started by: Chug on July 15, 2015, 11:26:08 PM
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I found out why my burner wouldn't stay running at the BBB, it has a burnt out component in the control box, and a replacement box is best part of £100, so I'm looking on fleabay/gumtree etc for another burner, either running and cheapish, or a dirt cheap non runner for the control box.
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That's a shame... Is the burnt component replaceable or is the damage too extensive?
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Jules asked the same question Tony, it probably could be replaced, but I'm crap at solder work on circuit boards, I'll get a picture taken of the burnt out component/circuit board and see what folks think.
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Chug,
Upload the photo, and we can see, but also -
What are you wanting the unit for? If its going to be attended use, then a lot of the control board could be done away with anyhow.
But its probably repairable - they are way more basic than modern units.
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there is a picture here, its not very clear but its the oblong box shape component on the left hand side, you can just see the melted top of it, I will try and get a better photo later when Mahli is back from work with her better camera.
(http://www.wastevegoildacorum.co.uk/circuit.jpg)
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It looks like there may be some print on the inner face of it?
If there is (or if there are any markings anywhere on it) try and get a snap of them.
Also, does the control unit itself have a brand / part number? I have one of those burners, and so does jules, but they all have different variations.
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Split the topic so it has its own thread.
Agreed it would help to have make and model of the burner and PCB if possible. Looks like it got quite oily, like it would enjoy a good rinse with IPA.
It's not immediately clear what that component is - relay, big capacitor? May have to wait for Mahli's photo.
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Its an Electro Oil inter 11 burner the control box is Danfoss BH011 057H2011 but its obselete and replaced by
Danfoss BH972.10 which can also be replaced by a later control box but that also needs a new wiring base
Later box = 057H8102 and wiring base = 057H7224
There is also a Satronic version TF830.3 fitted to some burners
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Ill have a look to see whats fitted to mine in a few days. I cant get to it at the moment, as there's 2 drums of bio just in front of it, but im set to pump that elsewhere shortly.
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Written on the component is this
Rifa
GFF
PME 271 M 647
40/085/58
its almost identical to this
(http://sigma.octopart.com/8638522/image/Kemet-PME271M647KR30.jpg)
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That is just a big capacitor, data sheet for it here
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1943741.pdf
really easy to change too.
One for sale on eBay for less than £4 delivered
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PME271M647K-0-47UF-275VAC-630VDC-EVOX-RIFA-CLASS-X2-CAP-/250914316460?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3a6ba8a0ac
In fact, by the looks of it, everything on that board is old fashioned and easy to change, no nasty fiddly surface mount stuff
The relay would be a pain to get but as your burner was firing up and running for 10 seconds we can assume that is fine.
I will have a look at the control box on my burner tomorrow to confirm but I suspect it is an easy job. If you want to send it in the post to me I will have a go for you
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aha, that sounds like good news Jules,
whilst you are having a look at yours....
can you look in the very centre of the board at the little barrel component with just one leg that goes between the big black plastic box and the black box orange solenoid thing, as it just fell apart when I was cleaning the board, so it needs that replacing now too!
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Wish I was still working at the pressure washer place I used to fall over these.
Brahma boxes
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Written on the component is this
Rifa
GFF
PME 271 M 647
40/085/58
That is a mains filter capacitor its only there to stop interference from
the boiler the panel will work OK with out it fitted.
its almost identical to this
(http://sigma.octopart.com/8638522/image/Kemet-PME271M647KR30.jpg)
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OK, I took the controller apart on my boiler and took some high resolution pics as below...
The numbers on the outer casing
(http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr79/julesandtash/Boiler%20and%20thermal%20store/20150719_100201_zpsbw47ocff.jpg)
The rear of the PCB
(http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr79/julesandtash/Boiler%20and%20thermal%20store/20150719_095827_zps3vks1sc6.jpg)
Closeup of the mains filter capacitor, you will notice that there are some components under it, rectifier diodes and resistors.
(http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr79/julesandtash/Boiler%20and%20thermal%20store/20150719_095814_zps0kjmesf7.jpg)
the main relay contacts
(http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr79/julesandtash/Boiler%20and%20thermal%20store/20150719_095747_zpswwurdkys.jpg)
Mains filter cap from above
(http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr79/julesandtash/Boiler%20and%20thermal%20store/20150719_095737_zpsjdmjgdq0.jpg)
The remaining components - a few more caps, some diodes, two transistors and lots of resistors
(http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr79/julesandtash/Boiler%20and%20thermal%20store/20150719_095726_zpsqz1cvi0a.jpg)
and finally the whole device from above
(http://i471.photobucket.com/albums/rr79/julesandtash/Boiler%20and%20thermal%20store/20150719_095706_zps0rrrbvjv.jpg)
It is all real basic stuff electronics wise, all the components should be available and easy to replace.
The transistors do have writing on the can but I was unable to read it with them in situ, you would have to replace one to read what they are.
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Thank you Jules, it looks the same unit,
in the last picture there is a squarish looking component (green I think) in the middle between relay and solenoid, this is the other bit that broke apart.
On the plus side I won a complete boiler for 99p
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Used-Oil-Boiler-/231617897918?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35ed80a5be
and bought another three burners for £25
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/pressure-jet-oil-burners-x-3-/221824604928?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item33a5c6db00
I managed to get the complete boiler firing up by removing and replacing the fuel pump solenoid with a bolt, but it goes to lockout after about 20 secs every time, but it does burn really well, with a stronger flame than the electro oil.
Jules would the solenoid unit not being connected cause this?
I also took a control box of one of the other units I got for £25 and I've now also got my burner running again, and today I'm gonna have another play with them now that I have a few spares.
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Right I've been experimenting and using my original, now working burner, I sussed out three working solenoids (and one duff one) and managed to get the new complete boiler burner running.
But it seems to have a slight problem, after the initial light it will start up again fine if you switch it off then back on within a few seconds but if I leave it for a 30 seconds to a minute then it wont and needs several on/off cycles and it eventually lights up again (but then my original burner sometimes does the same, although usually that one starts up again just fine after the initial start)
I also cut the end of the non working solenoid to use as a bypass and in both burners it locks out after 20 secs or so, so I've answered my question to Jules in that the control box somehow senses there is no solenoid working and cuts the power to the pump, with a working solenoid it keeps running until I switch it off.
So I now have two working burners and I just need to sort out some plumbing connections for the boiler to a central heating pump.
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Perhaps it is looking for a coil resistance on the solenoid - perhaps if you wired in a working dummy solenoid (not actually attached to anything) it would run longer?
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Good idea Tony, I never thought to try that, and the coil was there still just hanging to the side, so I'll try putting a working solenoid inside the coil next, it would be handy for future troubleshooting if it keeps it running.
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I tried a working solenoid in the coil but it still locks out after a short fire, so that answers that question.
Anyway, this afternoon I got all pipes and fittings and CH pump and the other odd bits and pieces I've been collecting together for heating the hot tub and did a dry run (well I suppose dry run is not a good phrase but you know what I mean)
I started with just filling the boiler with water then circulating from a large bucket through the boiler and back to the bucket, once this was working well with no leaks I plugged in the burner, in two minutes the water in the bucket was 60 degrees.
So I went and found a bigger drum of about 60 litres and with the boiler at its lowest setting (60C degrees) it soon heated the water to 45C and the burner switched off, I left the pump circulating through the boiler and the drum temp continued to climb up to 60C again.
I then added cold water to the drum to cool the circulating water to see at what temp the burner would fire up again and after several tests heating and cooling it seems to cut back in around 35-40C degrees drum temp and cut out around 45 - 50C drum temp with water output at 60C.
So bearing in mind this was only a smallish drum with a small surface area for evaporation in comparison to the 10ft diameter pool, I think a test on the pool is next (maybe tomorrow if it don't rain) but I'm hopeful that it will keep the water nicely hot, but if not I can always turn the boiler up, it has a maximum of 90C and I had it on its lowest of 60C.
And I'm glad I didn't test it on the pool straight off as the crap that came out of the boiler and the two long rubber pipes that I'm using (previously run diesel and veg in) made the water a rainbow streaked grey/brown! thankfully all clear now after several hours pumping and changing water.
Oh and on a bio/cherry mix its burning completely smokeless, the only way you can tell its burning is to put your hand over the flue pipe and feel for heat, well apart from the slight humming noise from the air fan and oil pump.
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Dont run the pool water through the boiler chug. It is very oxygenated water and will continually corrode the steel heat heat exchanger in the boiler, slowly turning the water orange.
You really want a stainless heat exchanger to keep the pool water (which is full of chlorine and oxygen) separate from the boiler water (which you use corrosion inhibiter in if you want).
A flat plate heat exchanger would do it
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Dont run the pool water through the boiler chug. It is very oxygenated water and will continually corrode the steel heat heat exchanger in the boiler, slowly turning the water orange.
You really want a stainless heat exchanger to keep the pool water (which is full of chlorine and oxygen) separate from the boiler water (which you use corrosion inhibiter in if you want).
A flat plate heat exchanger would do it
This.
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Oooh, that sounds very promising! I'm just envious that I'm not at the field to enjoy watching this all come together :)
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Just a quick post as I'm just off out the door but we spent several blissful hours in the 'hot tub' in the rain yesterday afternoon, the water was like a bath, had it cranked up to heat the water quicker and ended up turning it down to minimum as it was getting too hot for me and even Lynda who likes a hot bath said it was getting too hot for her.
More info later when I get the time.
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I hear ya about the rusting problem, so I'm on the look out for a HX, my british gas neighbour uses one for his hot tub and is looking out for me.
We started filling pool about 11-30am and I started putting all the pipes and pump together, had a slight problem with pump positioning, it wouldn't suck from the boiler end so had to place it at the pool end but after an hour filling we started adding heat, after 20 -30 mins it looked promising as water was slowly warming even with the cold still being added along with cold rain water.
After another good hour or so of filling, it was about half way full, we stopped adding cold water then as we knew we wouldn't have time to fill it completely and heat it to temp, then it soon started warming and by about 2pm it was warm enough that we jumped in.
By 3pm it was warmer than the BBB temp and was lovely, so I turned the boiler down to halfway, by 4pm it was toasty warm, good enough for a bath, by 5pm I switched the boiler to minimum as it was getting too hot for me and we had steam coming from the pool. (will try and upload Lynda's video later)
It was still warming (so warm that I had to sit as upright and out of the water as possible to allow rain and wind to keep me cool) until we got out at about 6-30 -7pm, absolutely marvelous, these times are approximate, but near enough to get an idea of its performance, obviously with a full pool it will take longer to heat to temp but it got so hot that I think cycling on the minimum setting it will keep a full pool well toasty.
It was a good test with outside temps being quite cool and cold rain hitting the surface, so on a warm sunny day it should perform even better.
Lynda and I wouldn't dream of being in a bath for 4 hours but having cold rain on ya back (and big cold drops from the tree if you were that side of the pool) and then ducking into hot water was bliss, our thoughts turned to hot tubbing in winter with snow/frost to plunge into and dark starry skies to look at!
We are well chuffed!
Massive thanks to all you guys!
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Hehe really nice to hear it's getting used!
The only problem I can see with using it in winter and with the snow falling is the inevitable having-to-get-out stage 8)
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Only 11 months to go for next bbb, sounds great Chug, can't wait to get in!