Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Biodiesel => Biodiesel equipment => Topic started by: Julian on May 18, 2015, 08:00:23 PM
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God, I'm good ... it only took me about 10 mins to find them ... I even found an AutoCAD section
Let me know if they need explanation ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/centrifuge_resized_1.jpg)
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/centrifuge_resized_2.jpg)
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/centrifuge_resized_3.jpg)
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/centrifuge_resized_4.jpg)
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/centrifuge_resized_5.jpg)
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/Centrifuge.wmf) Oh, this is a wmf file that appears not to open in the forum
Here's a copy converted to png, but it's not as clear, sorry!
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/centrifuge section.png)
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ohhhhh
thats exactly what I need
are you interested in selling ?
I've been looking for somewhere to make me a bowl so I could build the rest around it - guess you know the ready to use ones are crazy money :-o
I said 2 litres/min in the other thread as a total guess... I'm going to have it mounted on the floor above my settling tank, so I can pump it up there and let it drain back down.... once it's filtered enough I can turn a couple of tamps so it drains to my storage tank instead
(thats the plan anyway)
and/or see how it comes out after 1 pass, if it's good enough might just pass it through once :-)
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I made one yonks ago from an aluminium saucepan in a cut off beer barrel. it worked OK but I didn't use it much so put it in an auction. Iirc the design was on the web on an American site.
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ohhhhh
thats exactly what I need
are you interested in selling ?
I've been looking for somewhere to make me a bowl so I could build the rest around it - guess you know the ready to use ones are crazy money :-o
I said 2 litres/min in the other thread as a total guess... I'm going to have it mounted on the floor above my settling tank, so I can pump it up there and let it drain back down.... once it's filtered enough I can turn a couple of tamps so it drains to my storage tank instead
(thats the plan anyway)
and/or see how it comes out after 1 pass, if it's good enough might just pass it through once :-)
Not keen on selling as it was fabricated completely from sheet ali. using one of these new ali. soldering alloys and I'm a little concerned about it's strength. If it disintegrates while running it could do considerable damage!
Casting a bowl shouldn't be too difficult. Smashed up bell housings would make good material.
I only ever tried the centrifuge on WVO, not bio. If I can build a "blast box" that will retain any shrapnel, i might try it on bio.
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Would an aluminum pressure cooker be strong enough for the bowl.
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I was worried I wouldn't be able to cast a bowl that was balanced enough... same for large pots / pressure cookers
I want to leave it running overnight (trying to set up for as little hands on time as possible) so it needs to be well balanced / reliable because if something goes wrong I won't be there to turn it off
there's only one local place I know with laths big enough to make a bowl, but they take forever to get anything done... last job they did for me was a 20min job... took them 18 months !
(and that's with me dropping in every few weeks to check up on it)
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Don't know if you could leave it running. The design I used had to have the crud removed as it sticks to the side of the 'fuge. It is semi solid so will not drain out. Once the rim is full then the cleaning stops. It depends how clean the liquid being 'fuged is I suppose.
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Dick's right, but you can increase the capacity in three ways ...
Make the bowl deeper, make the bowl a bigger diameter or best option form an effectiveness point of view, if not fabrication, make the bowl taller. A taller bowl will give a longer dwell time in the centrifuge as the liquid enters at the bottom and exits at the top.
I have seen centrifuges comprising horizontal cylinders which rely on a long transit time from one end to the other ... might be the way to go as the cylinder can be supported on bearings at both ends.
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Diameter is key though. The bigger the diameter the higher the G force for a given RPM. IIRC a 200mm diameter at about 3000 RPM gives about 1000G. The higher the G the faster the particles go to the edge and the smaller the particles that will be filtered out.
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My rotor diameter was limited by what would fit on my lathe, so it ended up 180mm OD, but we were talking of ways to increase the crud capacity.
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Would an aluminum pressure cooker be strong enough for the bowl.
As it's one piece, either drawn or spun, I'd have said it would be. Don't forget though you need a partial lid to trap the oil/bio in the bowl.
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Sorry J it was intended for anyone who did not understand the principles.
The top for the pan, on mine, was machined from a piece of aluminium in a top hat form so it could be pressed in and held with set screws radially. I think it was about 1/2 inch thick.
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I've emailed a few places about having a bowl made, I'll see what happens
once place I found making them casts the bowls and then I guess turns them down afterwards - I know a casting place so that might be an option ?
I've got a lathe, myford ml7, but it's a bit small for any big/heavy work :-)
hopefully the bowl will be able to hold more than enough crud for me.... if not I can always run it during the day and check on it every few hours to clean it out
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Mine's an ML7 too, so you'd most likely be limited to 180mm OD.
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http://www.wvodesigns.com/rpc-poboy-kit.html
~£200 delivered to uk is the best I can find so far
don't think I could have one made for much less than that... bug chunk of aluminium to start with then lots of machine time will probably add up quick !
they do a ready to use one for ~£600 delivered to uk... I don't want to spend that much but it is very tempting... at least I could get it up and running quick! (not much free time)
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Julian, did you cash yours and then turn it, so you didn't have to take so much off with the lathe ?
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It was a long time ago, so memory of the exact method has faded a little. I certainty cut the discs on the lathe and possibly tidied up some of the ali. soldering on it, but I didn't skim it all over.
I just built it as accurately as I could and took great care in clamping it all square before soldering. Bending was done on a set of home-made rolls made from scaffold tube. Given that it was never balanced, it's remarkably stable. There's a rough spot as it runs up to speed, but once up and running there's virtually no vibration.
Balancing a cast bowl (which would certainly be necessary with a casting) could easily be done on a couple of parallel knife edges, provided the design had a place where metal could be drilled out.
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does a 250mm bowl, 150mm tall, with a 50mm lip around the top sound about right ?
(need dimensions to get price for making one)
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G force calculator here ... http://www.endmemo.com/bio/grpm.php
I recon pretty much any size will work. But as Dick says, the bigger the dia the larger the G force. But if you slow the through put so the liquid stays longer in the bowl, it will have the same effect in a smaller diameter. Think cubie of WVO left for a week compared to one left for six months.
Jim was looking into having some cast a while back, what happened, Jim ... did they not have any black aluminium?
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nice calculator :-)
250mm bowl at 6000rpm is 10,000G
so probably too much :-o
(motor/berings might last longer if I go slower)
apparently simple centrifuge's machines produce just short of 1300g
at 250mm bowl diameter it only needs a ~2500rpm
actually... maybe I should be using the diameter of the opening at the top ?
150mm needs 2800rpm for 1300g
numbers aren't as bad as I thought :-)
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does a 250mm bowl, 150mm tall, with a 50mm lip around the top sound about right ?
(need dimensions to get price for making one)
The bowl diam and height is somewhat irrelevant when making a fuge as g force is directly related to bowl rpm and radius.
The single most important thing is getting the entire rotating assembly dynamically balanced.
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nice calculator :-)
actually... maybe I should be using the diameter of the opening at the top ?
150mm needs 2800rpm for 1300g
numbers aren't as bad as I thought :-)
As Jim says it is the radius that is used in most calcs for G. Use the radius of the vessel, not the radius of the hole in the top plate. When deciding on the top hole diameter don't forget that you have to get your hand in to clean out the crud, or an appropriate tool. The depth of the lip determines two things, I think, the amount of time the oil is in the fuge and the amount of crud it will contain. The former is also dependant on the oil rate of flow in.
If you make the top plate with a lip over an inner vessel that houses the bearings the clean oil can easily be collected in an outer vessel. (Hope that makes sense)
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The bowl diam and height is somewhat irrelevant when making a fuge
as g force is directly related to bowl rpm and radius
erm....
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top hole vs bowl diameter tho...
the oil builds up in outside of the bowl until it's level with the lip/hole at the top so it can overflow out...
won't the oil in the centre be under less G force than the the oil against the side of the bowl ?
either way, with a 250mm bowl and a 150mm opening, there'll be plenty of room for crud, and the rpm needed is in a reasonable range to get to with a standard motor and inverter... nothing special needed apart from the bowl!
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250mm diam
150mm hight
7.4litres total volume
100 diam
150 hight
4.7litres (volume of hole in middle)
2.7litres of oil in the bowl when it's full/running
so at 1200g thats about.... 32tons of force pushing out on the bowl ?
(ignoring the different g force at different distances from the wall to be safe)
have a missed a decimal place somewhere or is that right ?
(I used 1kg pre litre of oil to make it simple)
I think I put diameter into the calculator instead of radius earlier on...
at 125mm diam, for 1200g it needs to spin at 2930rpm
better make the bowl a bit thicker than I originally thought...
my 150mm hight might be a bit optimistic too...
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You must take the total weight of bowl crud and oil into account, the greater the RPM the more stored kinetic energy you'll have to allow for when bulding the outer case as you need to try and contain it should the fixings fail.
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could you use a gas bottle for the bowl?
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http://imgur.com/nphnb1v
http://imgur.com/cHfk6GN
http://imgur.com/QWhACZC
http://imgur.com/W8EcMGU
:-)
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Ooooo! I'll 'ave to start looking at making some casting patterns.
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Ooooo! I'll 'ave to start looking at making some casting patterns.
You were looking at that several years ago ... feck you're slow!
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Ooooo! I'll 'ave to start looking at making some casting patterns.
You were looking at that several years ago ... feck you're slow!
No I'm not, just not as fast as others and I'm easily distracted.
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will they take much tidying up once they're cast ?
there's a foundry 5min from my work and they;ve done some bits for me before....
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will they take much tidying up once they're cast ?
there's a foundry 5min from my work and they;ve done some bits for me before....
I've spent a few hours in our local foundry and from what I've seen of their work not a lot but it does depend on how good the mold patterns are.
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last time I was in the one I used, they were casting a giant metal cylinder about 10 food diameter... to be used in an mri machine
I was pretty amazed how accurate they could make things :-o
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It is easier with round parts as differential shrinkage should not affect them especially if the dimensions are not super critical as even with a shrinkage rule it is not spot on. They will still need balancing and accurate machining for bearings though.
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Well there's the drawing for the bowl and with a clever bit of ingenuity the same patterns can be used for the core as well as the outer shape.
The foundry use shell core moulds.
(http://i1363.photobucket.com/albums/r711/jrl61/fuge%20bowl_zpsvrpsjqjb.jpg)
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That must be an old one ... it's blue.
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That must be an old one ... it's blue.
No it's not, you told me to use Blue No. 103. FFS.
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Jim do you have a sketchup/stl file so I could print one and take it to the local foundry ?
(even if I have to print it a bit smaller)
or... if you're going to do that, I;ll just wait and buy one from you already done ?
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Jim do you have a sketchup/stl file so I could print one and take it to the local foundry ?
(even if I have to print it a bit smaller)
Yes but I'm on me boot this week so I'll sort out the stl. File when I get back.
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Knighty ... check the bowel is circular when you get the file ... I've heard that Jim scrimps on sides and some times only uses 1000.
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What's the OD Jim? Just wondering if one would fit my static parts.
Also you may want to consider redesigning the lip around the top hole. Oil/bio leaving the lip at high speed will splash badly on the vertical surface that catches it.
If you look at my section, I had a removable cover and no lip.
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It strikes me that an old brake drum appears to be about the right shape. Just needs a cover.
Or two welded together.
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It strikes me that an old brake drum appears to be about the right shape. Just needs a cover.
Or two welded together.
Quite like that idea!
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the legit simple centrifuges one has a lip around the tip, not sure why
thought about break drums... but was worried about the weight if it went bank :-o
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Would a car brake drum inside a truck brake drum be safe??
I would have thought a truck drum would stop most bits if it ddi go tits up.
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So, tell me guys,
What contaminants will a fuge remove from finished bio, lets say it's been settled and not water washed.
How would it cope with dissolved water and would it totally remove magnesol.
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How would the suggested two brake drums be fixed to each other?
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So, tell me guys,
What contaminants will a fuge remove from finished bio, lets say it's been settled and not water washed.
How would it cope with dissolved water and would it totally remove magnesol.
I never tried my centrifuge on bio. It was built with the intention of cleaning WVO.
Nathan used to run his finished bio through a pressure driven centrifuge. I remember him saying it pulled out quite a lot of crud.
He was going to write a wiki page on centrifuges and I think started one here ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Centrifuges (spookily there's a picture of my centrifuge on there). With the logic of something is better than nothing, I'll categorise the page so it shows up in the index, head it as incomplete and upload the photos from photo bucket (or whereever) to the wiki.
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How would the suggested two brake drums be fixed to each other?
hi Grandad 8)
I was thinking of the truck drum being the outer part of the fuge, with the motor on it.
car drum being the rotor, truck drum being the collector.
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I've also run finished bio through my pressure driven fuge, it's amazing how much soap/glyc/waxy like crap gets spun out.
The problem with that type of fuge is you don't have much, if any, control over flow rate or g force.
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Done a little on Nathans wiki centrifuge page and rescued all the photos.
This is the one showing the crud collected from finished bio ...
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/thumb/b/b7/Chadshmpecake.jpg/447px-Chadshmpecake.jpg)
Difficult to tell from the photo, but I recon there could be a dark (possibly glycerin) layer beneeth the creamy layer.
It's certainly got me thinking that centrifuging finished bio might be a good thing.
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I've never had the glyc layer but my creamy layer is a little darker.
The colder the bio is the more creamy crap you can get out.
If youhave a soapy batch DON'T try to fuge the soap out with a pressure fuge, you'll end up with enough foam to put an aircraft fire out. Let the soap settle out first.
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Yes, me too.
Just been looking at Beyond Biodiesel, someone on there feeds a pressure driven fuge from a pressureised tank, so no need for the pump.
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Yes, me too.
Just been looking at Beyond Biodiesel, someone on there feeds a pressure driven fuge from a pressureised tank, so no need for the pump.
that sounds doable in a stainless water tank. they are designed for 10 bar and you need 7 bar.
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or a compressor tank ?
fill it with oil, then connect it up to your air line ?
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Yes, that sort of thing. I think it was a compressor tank he used, meant to go up to 200psi but he was using it at 100. Seems a simple idea if you don't have the pump.
I've just completed my first batch of settle only bio, although the 50/50 is excellent I'm still not convinced. I will post some pics later on a new thread.
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So, tell me guys,
What contaminants will a fuge remove from finished bio, lets say it's been settled and not water washed.
How would it cope with dissolved water and would it totally remove magnesol.
You should be able to remove everything other than water, maybe even water if you are thinking about the motor driven spinning bowl. I know chemiphase were even concerned that a centrifuge could separate winteriser after it had been completely mixed in (not sure what that says either about winteriser or the centrifuge).
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Done a little on Nathans wiki centrifuge page and rescued all the photos.
This is the one showing the crud collected from finished bio ...
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/thumb/b/b7/Chadshmpecake.jpg/447px-Chadshmpecake.jpg)
Difficult to tell from the photo, but I recon there could be a dark (possibly glycerin) layer beneeth the creamy layer.
It's certainly got me thinking that centrifuging finished bio might be a good thing.
The pic was from Chad in Nuneaton... Typically, even from well water washed fuel there will be a bit of the dark brown sticky stuff. Probably glyc, could be polymerised bio or wvo (a few teaspoons full from 180 litres, if it were wvo wouldn't show up in a 10/90 - but would WVO be heavier than bio?). In the summer, this may be all that you would get, but in the winter the cream stuff - shown on Chad's pic will be plentiful.
I was talking to Rob Perrie recently and he describes exactly the same.
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I've never had the glyc layer but my creamy layer is a little darker.
The colder the bio is the more creamy crap you can get out.
If youhave a soapy batch DON'T try to fuge the soap out with a pressure fuge, you'll end up with enough foam to put an aircraft fire out. Let the soap settle out first.
Not sure... Steve Dewin, used a pressure fuge with settled (non-water washed). Think he ran off his soap after demething, then centrifuged from one tank to a clean tank, then back again and got soap plus glyc in his fuge.
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Yes, me too.
Just been looking at Beyond Biodiesel, someone on there feeds a pressure driven fuge from a pressureised tank, so no need for the pump.
that sounds doable in a stainless water tank. they are designed for 10 bar and you need 7 bar.
I think to run a centrifuge for a sufficiently long period of time, you would need a massive compressor pump, driven by a very big motor (maybe 4hp) with a significant tank, if this were possible. A gear pump would be much more straight forward.
btw I don't sell fuges any more, but I did learn a thing or two about the whole thing. If anyone is thinking of the gear pump route - happy to advise. But in general terms, you don't want a pump with a built in pressure regulator, you should match the pump's flow closely to the throughput of the centrifuge and it's a good idea to ensure that everything has Viton seals. (I'll guess some of this stuff belongs on Wikki)
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He was going to write a wiki page on centrifuges and I think started one here ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Centrifuges (spookily there's a picture of my centrifuge on there). With the logic of something is better than nothing, I'll categorise the page so it shows up in the index, head it as incomplete and upload the photos from photo bucket (or whereever) to the wiki.
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I've just taken a look at the wikki page and it looks reasonably complete. Not sure if I can remember how to edit, or even if I still have editing rights. But in terms of any changes the only thing that I would add would be a good over view for a fitting kit that would enable folk to cobble together their own (maybe something about hose assemblies rather than reinforced hose and jubilee kits on the pressure side of things), a video showing a centrifuge in operation, cleaning the bowl out, a bit about reassembly (I've known of the occasional bod who has used a monkey wrench to tighten the knurled nut on the top of the bowl and damaged the blow, so that it can't keep it's pressure) and finally something about the usefulness of having a conical tank and pulling from the bottom of the tank - obvious really, but you'd be surprised ;-)
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Nathan, you still have editing rights, please edit away and shout if you need any help.
Mind you it'll be the blind leading the blind as I've forgotten most of it and have to Google what I want to do.
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compressor / air tank shouldn't need to be that big
even a small DIY type compressor should be able to fill a 200litre tank with 90psi of air faster than you can run 200litres of bio through the fuge ?
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compressor / air tank shouldn't need to be that big
even a small DIY type compressor should be able to fill a 200litre tank with 90psi of air faster than you can run 200litres of bio through the fuge ?
You'll need a constant 105psi to run even a small pressure fuge at approx 7ltr/min.
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7litres / min
is 28min to empty a 200 litre tank (empty of bio I mean)
I'd think most compressors could keep up with that
200litres is 7cubic feet
so compressor only needs to do 3.5cfm to keep up ?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Warrior-240v-24ltr-Air-Compressor-7-3CFM-/181765050344?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2a520a8fe8
hobby type compressor, it's 2hp and 7.3cfm
:-)