Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum

Biodiesel => Chemistry and process => Topic started by: Tony on May 17, 2015, 04:16:07 PM

Title: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: Tony on May 17, 2015, 04:16:07 PM
The bio was very foamy pumping into a drum - turns out I'd dipped the pickup into the glyc at the bottom of the settle drum.

(http://s5.postimg.org/657kjo9nr/glyc_thru_filter.jpg)

See that black layer at the bottom? This went straight through a 1u filter without any issues at all.

Perhaps useful for keeping grit and waxes out of the final fuel, but definitely not soap or glyc!
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: Manfred on May 17, 2015, 04:24:52 PM
That explains why I've seen fallout in my stood cubbies then. At least it won't block the filter but not good if it settles in the bottom of the tank.
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: Julian on May 17, 2015, 04:34:39 PM
I know you like the 20 ltr drums for cold weather acclimatisation, but a bigger storage tank, floating pickup and a dispensing hose would prevent it happening.

That or may the way to go is centrifuging ... where's Nathan!
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: Julian on May 17, 2015, 04:35:56 PM
No second thoughts that's a lot of glycerin to be dropping out of finished bio.  How about water washing?
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: Rossey on May 17, 2015, 10:18:18 PM
No second thoughts that's a lot of glycerin to be dropping out of finished bio.  How about water washing?

Is that why my first wash water is always brown
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: Tony on May 17, 2015, 10:34:50 PM
Not a commentary on fuel finishing, just pre-tank filtration.

The 25l drums I have to use to carry the 35m from the outbuilding to the car :)
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: Head Womble on May 17, 2015, 10:51:22 PM
No second thoughts that's a lot of glycerin to be dropping out of finished bio.  How about water washing?

Is that why my first wash water is always brown

Yes.
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: knighty on May 18, 2015, 01:38:18 AM
Is that why my first wash water is always brown


you need to wash more often, dirty southerner !
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: nigelb on May 18, 2015, 05:11:45 PM
Is that why my first wash water is always brown


you need to wash more often, dirty southerner !

's a bit harsh! ;D
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: nigelb on May 18, 2015, 05:14:57 PM
No second thoughts that's a lot of glycerin to be dropping out of finished bio.  How about water washing?

Is that why my first wash water is always brown

The level of brownness could well be due to glyc carry over. I'm pretty careful with mine but the first water wash is a dark beige due to soap migration.
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: kamaangir on May 18, 2015, 05:53:49 PM
Is that why my first wash water is always brown


you need to wash more often, dirty southerner !

Those who work in a dog food factory should not be throwing thier tripe ;D
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: knighty on May 18, 2015, 05:59:33 PM
Those who work in a dog food factory should not be throwing thier tripe ;D

there used to be a video of me online getting a wash in a tripe factory !
(climbing into a big tub of freezing cold water)


had a hot date and no time to go home :-o
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: Jamesrl on May 18, 2015, 07:53:50 PM

had a hot date and no time to go home :-o

A good looking bitch was she?

Isn't that illegal though?
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: K.H on May 19, 2015, 08:16:08 AM
Paddy has always maintained that to get the bio to pass all the regs you need to allow it to settle for 72 hours before moving on to washing / settling
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: dgs on May 19, 2015, 03:42:45 PM
Paddy has always maintained that to get the bio to pass all the regs you need to allow it to settle for 72 hours before moving on to washing / settling

I can undertstand this with dry washing, but with water washing surely the water will remove anything that would settle anyway.
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: julianf on May 19, 2015, 04:13:41 PM
I fill up from ex MOD jerry cans.  They have a clip on nozzle, which i keep in a plastic bag in the car.

That nozzle is glazed with a glyc coloured film, as is the inside of the plastic bag.


Now this could be oxidised (?) bio, or it could be gyc.  Im thinking if its bio, then it would still be there if i water washed, but, if its glyc etc. then im wondering if water washing or fuging would free me of it.

I cant think its great for it to go in the car.
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: dgs on May 19, 2015, 06:16:00 PM
if you water wash (aggressivley) until the water is clear there will be no glyc left. I know this is a pain as then the bio has also to be dried, I have dry washed but have never been happy with it.

Having said that , a bio friend from the next village has been experimenting with a slightly different way of dry washing, his 50/50 shake up's are the clearest I have ever seen. I am going to try this with my next batch and report.
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: Twenty4Seven on May 20, 2015, 08:54:00 AM
I fill up from ex MOD jerry cans.  They have a clip on nozzle, which i keep in a plastic bag in the car.

That nozzle is glazed with a glyc coloured film, as is the inside of the plastic bag.

Now this could be oxidised (?) bio, or it could be gyc. 

Yep, I get exactly the same reddy-brown deposit on my filling nozzle too - and also in the bag it's kept in.

I'm pretty certain it is oxidised bio, so water washing won't prevent it.
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: julianf on May 20, 2015, 12:18:21 PM
As an 'experiment' today, i bought the nozzel in and tried to wash it.

Glyc would come off very easily.
Bio (and bio derivatives) would be harder?

This stuff is harder to get moved than bio.  Even with my usual selection of cleaning products, it does not dissolve.

Its not like its hard - you can 'push' (smear) it easily enough, but its far from water solvable.

(so not glyc then)


I wonder if i would get the same residue on the nozzle if i water washed?  If its just oxidised bio, then you would expect so, but if its some sort of contaminant that (somehow, even though its not water soluable), water washing would remove, i guess things would be different.
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: Jmg on May 20, 2015, 05:58:51 PM
Might explain why my multipla is so grumpy this week after faultlessly running bio for the last. I was a bit wary using the bottom of my bio barrel but I eventually decided it should all be OK as it had all been through the filter.
Well it was that or pay for diesel...
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: dgs on May 21, 2015, 10:46:49 AM
Does bio really turn brown when oxidised? Maybe, but I've never seen this happen.
I try to keep everything really tidy in my bio cave, wiping up small spills etc. However at the back of my wash tank where over the last 2 years a small amount of bio has run down, it has oxidised, gone hard, not sticky and continually gets heated up as batch after batch is de-methed and washed. This hard bio is transparent, and can virtually be peeled off, but it is not glycerol coloured.
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: Twenty4Seven on May 21, 2015, 11:39:25 AM
OK, this piece on high IV bio is from the JTF site (spit) but it does mention bio turning reddish on oxidation...


Perhaps a few of us could try this? Note that it is feedstock specific if it does depend on the iodine value.

Nick
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: Julian on May 21, 2015, 06:51:08 PM


Perhaps a few of us could try this? Note that it is feedstock specific if it does depend on the iodine value.

Nick

Like that idea, Nick.

We have discussed having an experimental section on the wiki and something like that would lend it's self to having a page where people could document heir findings.

Are members interested in a collective experiment and a page where we can collate results?

Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: THE-DOLPHIN on May 21, 2015, 08:00:25 PM
Yes I would be I am able to help with costs oil and bio if needed hope to hear from you all soon
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: dgs on May 21, 2015, 08:27:21 PM
I would certainly be interested in that.
Title: Re: The futility of 1u filtering
Post by: Julian on May 21, 2015, 09:21:37 PM
I surprise my self some times!

I've somehow managed to create a new category and get it indexed on the wiki front page ... more by luck than judgment I recon!



I've started this page ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Biodiesel_and_oil_oxidisation_collaborative_trial

Welcome suggestions on page layout.

I'd suggest a description of what people need to do followed by a table that can be filled in by participants detailing any variations from the method, observations and dated results ... anything else?