Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Biodiesel => Biodiesel equipment => Topic started by: Julian on November 10, 2011, 08:50:02 PM
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http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Hot_water_cylinders
Very useful chart, Tony, Where did you find that?
My Mark I heated filter is nearing completion, Mark II is already on the cranial drawing board. Mark I is made primarily from brass and copper. I was concerned by a recent thread on the VOD showing green Bio, so I think I'll try some simple tests with bits of copper in Bio and various ingredients to see which, if any, produces the colouring.
Photos of the tests might sit well on a page with your table, showing exactly what produces the colouring ... I assume it's Copper Oxide. I've got my suspicions that excluding air will prevent it from occurring.
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I know that me and Chug have kept bio samples and i think Nige has some at the moment and yes it is contact with air that causes the green,if the samples are submerged is wont occur
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You spoil all my fun you do!
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Its what we at Tosser Towers like to do ;D
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The table is an accumilation from a couple of sites :)
What it really needs is diagrams of direct, indirect and primatic cylinders. I've found a couple of direct/indirect ones from a DIY site but my GIMP skills are pretty poor with the new version so I've not yet managed to craft a primatic cylinder diagram.
The intention on that page was also to advise on checking immersion heater length as well.
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my GIMP skills are pretty poor
Well, it made me laugh anyway.
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So ... you want a graphic of a cylinder?
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How much trouble would it be Julian?
The ones I was looking at for direct and indirect are here:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Domestic_Hot_Water_Systems#Direct_and_Indirect_systems
However these is nothing for primatic - the best I've found is here:
http://www.salamander-engineering.co.uk/technicalcentre/faq/faq.htm#primatic
What I'd like to do is write a paragraph on identifying primatic vs coiled cylinders (essentially if you look through the side port of a primatic - you see the curved wall of the primatic parts rather than the tube bending away as with coiled indirect).
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Yes, it would be an immense amount of trouble, but hey, anything for a good wiki ... (I recon we can do a little better than the diagrams you referenced though).
We could show one inverted, noting the connections in respect of a processor (if you wish).
I'd never heard of a Primatic cylinder until you mentioned them, don't think they can be very common. I think I can see how they work, but what's the periscope type thing sticking up into the tank, any ideas?
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That would be fab Julian.
With the inverted one we can show the dangers of a long element (fancy drawing an explosion?)
Primatic is what my cylinder was - much to my annoyance. I had to cut the base off, extract the innards, then soft solder some shaped copper back over the gaping 'ole.
I should've kept the primatic bit, there was a periscope type tube, but whether that was to create a pressurised air section to allow some water into the upper dish or not I couldn't say. Complicated things they are, never fully understood how they worked.
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Ok, I'll see what I can do over the next few days. I'll try asking a plumber mate how common primatic cylinders are.
Very good idea about the immersion length, will do. Let me know any other ideas you have.
Somewhere I have some photos of soldering additional connections to a copper cylinder ... are those any use for the page?
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Yes definitely - the more information the merrier really!
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Ok, I put some diagrams together. I'm not too sure about the shading inside the cylinder, I think it might confuse things, so I'd be happy to hear other peoples comments.
Tony, it's quite easy to move connections, heaters etc, so let me know what permutations and arrangements you want for the page. We can use or loose the ticks and crosses as you see fit. Do you want all the designs on one graphic or individually? Would it be an idea to name the various connections as in a heating sytem?
I could show foam insulation, along with additional insulation on the bottom of the tank when up-turned, if you want to include that in the text too.
I haven't had a chance to ask my mate how common primatic cylinders are.
Efforts to date (just a scratch file ) are ...
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/a/a2/UK_Cu_cylinders.png)
I've also up loaded photos of soldering new connections to a cylinder here ...
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/a/a3/Tank_connector_soldered_in_position.JPG)
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/1/1c/Silver_soldered_flange_soft_soldered_to_tank.JPG)
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/b/b7/Flange_silver_soldered_to_fitting.JPG)
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Just spoken to my tame plumber ... he installs one or two boilers a week and comes across pirmatic cylinders three or four times a year. So it looks like they are not very common.
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I must have been really unluckly then.
All those picture are AWESOME. I mean, really, really good! Can we use all of them please? I like the shading - in fact, I wasn't expecting so much - bloody brilliant Julian!
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Calm down dear, it's only an advert!
I think you must have been unlucky, but I think it's worth mentioning on the page if only to say take it to the scrappy, the extra weight should allow you to exchange if for a more suitable one free of charge!
We can use whatever you like. Other permutations, if you need them, will be a breeze now the basic components are drawn. Let me know how you want them presented and if to include the ticks etc.
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Please can we have the top four cylinders as separate files, so we can make a gallery with description by each one, and the bottom three as a single image, we can just put some text by that indicating the importance of not having heating elements above a certain height in the inverted cylinder?
I think we should keep the ticks.
Sorry not been about much this week, urgent project at work, been working weekends and evenings to get it done.
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There you go ....
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/7/76/Cu_cylinders_-_Indirect.png)
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/7/78/Cu_cylinders_-_Direct.png)
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/1/1e/Cu_cylinders_-_Twin_immersion.png)
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/6/6a/Cu_cylinders_-_Primatic.png)
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/4/44/Cu_cylinders_-_As_processors.png)
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/8/84/Cu_cylinders_-_Level_switches.png)
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Oops, seem to have lost the immersion from the primatic cylinder ... just uploaded another version, so should be OK now.
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Fantastic, thanks Julian.
I'll get right on with putting them on that page.
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Please could everyone that has a cylinder take a quick peer and review what I've written:
http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Hot_water_cylinders
I've not yet included Julian's photos of the new connections being soldered - could do with more of a description as to what each picture shows and how the bits were made for the one with the connector on a slope.
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I've got a direct cylinder and no problems with what you've put.
Just some other comments ...
Might be better titled "Processors - using Hot water cylinders" or "hot water cylinders as processors" or similar.
To try and maintain an international bent, you could point out that this is a UK HWC, US cylinders are different but can be used for the Appleseed design.
... occupies some of the cylinder's volume and two connections which could otherwise be used as processor connections.
If using a second hand cylinder, check the integrity of all the connections, if they look dodgy it may be safest to find a better cylinder. If the cylinder is sound, check for lime scale. Once the cylinder has dried internally, this can be heard inside when the cylinder is shaken. As much limescale as possible needs to be removed, as any lumps left in the processor could cause damage to the circulating pump and block the venturi if you fit one.
I didn't take any other photos of the connections I'm afraid, but descriptions are as follows ...
The slanty one ...
To fit a connection vertically through the sloping bottom of the processor a brass compression fitting was used. An elliptical flange with an elliptical hole to take the fitting was cut from a piece of opened out, scrap copper tube. The flange was then silver soldered to the fitting at the appropriate angle. Silver solder was used so that the assembly could then be soft soldered to an elliptical hole in the processor top. (one photo shows the fitting in the processor with the flange silver soldered in place. The second shows the fitting and flange assembly soft soldered to the processor). If you want to mention it, just visible in those photos is am immersion heater socket soldered to the dimple (the flange is almost a perfect fit in the dimple) as an access point or a connection for future developments.
The one in the side of the cylinder ...
The foam lagging was carefully cut back and a hole drilled for a standard tank connector. A piece of wire was fed through the immersion heater hole until it poked out of the new hole. The internal half of the tank connector without the rubber washer, was then slid down the wire and pulled out of the hole. The securing nut was tightened on the connector and the whole assembly soft soldered in place. The foam lagging was pritected with wet rags during the soldering process.
Soldering gives a far better seal than just relying on the washer to make the seal. The washer is likely to be made of a material incompatible with Biodiesel.
Also we could mention insulation, in that the top of the processor needs a good layer. I can do additional graphics showing a standard foam lagged cylinder and a graphic and description of how I used polyurethane foam to insulate the top. It's all been cut off now but I might have some old photos I could dig out.
I'm sure others could contribute alternative versions of the top insulation too.
Sorry it's a bit long winded, but you did ask!
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There you go ... one with standard insulation
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/1/1a/Cu_cylinders_-_foam_insulation.png)
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And the top insulated version ...
(http://www.biopowered.co.uk/w/images/3/3c/Cu_cylinders_-_top_insulation.png)
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Inspired by Jim's recent post on the VOD, you could add a column to the table giving batch sizes against the cylinder capacities. Jim's recommendation is WVO + Methoxide + 10% head space, although with the inverted dished end it may be preferable to be a little more generous with the head space.
I'll try and do some blurb on the foam insulated top later today.
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OK nice one, I'm sure I'll get around to some modifications based on your commentary above too.
My cylinder is 166l and I do 125l batches with 22% Methoxide (152.5l) which must leave 13l headspace. I've tried to do a bit more but the level gets up to where the venturi discharges and also I was getting oily gunk down the condenser takeoff (which picks up from around the rim at the top). So I would say for a cylinder 15l headspace is about what to aim for.
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hi folk's
not been on recently
got new business starting, blasting, noooooo not nitro,
i'll always be here if i can help in any wayh
best site ever for bio
cheers
Will
ps
got a 45/200 drum with a cone on bottom, not finished yet,,cone is welded on .,,,anyone interested????????? could also weld another one on top,,,,,,,
if you want
cheers
Will
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could be blasted too, and pressure tested, 35psi ok?
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its got 'clip on lid''
i will not be standing beside it on pressure test
enough said
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Bio Adam on the VOD has posted a request for cones today
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http://www.regaltanks.co.uk/calculator/
this may help and you can set liquid level aswell
8)
and download an app for your iphone or andriod, which i have = very nice