Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
General => Wiki and forum discussion => Topic started by: Julian on January 10, 2015, 06:47:50 PM
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Wasn't there a page or link to a Bosch VE pump rebuild on the wiki somewhere or am I imagining things?
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http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Manuals_and_instructions
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http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Manuals_and_instructions
Doh!!!
Thanks Chug ... I was looking under the miscellaneous section.
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I thought it was just the pump shaft seal that has gone.
Why are you pulling the whole pump apart ?
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whats the pump off?
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Discovery 300tdi.
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I thought it was just the pump shaft seal that has gone.
Why are you pulling the whole pump apart ?
The shaft seal had gone and I had a spare pump.
So ... I put that on and it ran like pants. Lumpy tick over, stalling wouldn't rev. Tried priming it using the leaver on the lift pump ... that suddenly went free and just didn't feel right.
So ... I changed the lift pump and checked all the connections for air leaks and cracked all the joints at the filter, IP and injectors. No air, nice clean bio coming out.
So ... I pulled the IP diaphragm out and gave the stem a clean which seemed to improve things a little. Partially firing on 3 cylinders and completely missing on one ... lots of smoke!
So ... I kept starting it and trying to keep it running now getting a little response from the throttle. It got better and better, so much so that it ended up on full throttle all on it's own and wouldn't now tick over.
So ... I sprayed a little WD40 down the hole where the diaphragm stem goes and kept starting it and letting it rev it's nuts off briefly before stopping it. Eventually it cleared, ticked over as sweet as a nut and revved nicely.
Yes I thought ... but no ... looked under the engine and there was a veritable Niagara falls of bio from the cam belt case drain plug.
So ... I took the bloody thing out again and refitted the first pump. The leak on that, now I've bothered to check is actually quite bad too ... bugger!
So ... look at secondhand pump ... circa 150 - 250 quid, recon pump 400 - 500 quid.
So ... I investigate changing the seal. Cheapest I can find is 18 quid off ebay as part of a kit of seals. Transpires it an unusual size 20*31*7.3 and not an off the shelf item from a bearing stockist. I've found them cheaper in China but not surprisingly, on a long delivery.
So ... from reading on the internet there's no key between the drive flange and shaft, so I've printed a tool that locates in the flange and can have a thin cutting disc (screwfix do small discs 1mm thick) run across half the end of the shaft and into the tool. The tool can then be removed and the flange popped (loud bang is a better description as it was on proper tight) off.
So ... with access to the seal, you can drill a hole, protecting the shaft with a hose clip, and very carefully muller the seal to a point where it will pull out.
That the current state of paly. Awaiting confirmation from the ebay seller that his seal is Viton and it should be here Tuesday, although there's a Bosch stockist in Croydon I might try tomorrow.
Having now had a lot of practice at changing the IP, it should be quite a quick job to swap the pumps over again ... not building my hope up too much at this stage though!
Don't you just love Discos!
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Try Dieselbob.
Never used, but heard good things.
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yup, Bob is a helpful chap, he will sort a viton seal out for you. 01254 878 582
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did start twin tanking a 300tdi once found out lift pump didn't do jack the actual pump pulled the fuel through.
also think there is a landy/disco mechanic close to me somewhere (on a farm) used to be a bit of a landy/disco graveyard of parts too...
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You can fit any TC/TB profile shaft seal so long as it has the correct dimensions (and is double lipped). For example:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/17x28x7mm-TC-R23-Double-Lip-Viton-Rubber-Metric-Shaft-Oil-Seal-with-Spring-/141009904978
(£8.50 is a bit more like it!)
Here are the types explained
(http://www.customgasketmfg.com/Images/oil-shaft-seal-designs.jpg)
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Well, so far so good. Place in Croydon had one ... £5 cash, genuine Bosch part. Navigation was easy, satnav to get there and follow the trail of biodiesel on the way back!
Interesting brief discussion with the chap there. Apparently the seal sees around 90 psi, not just the lift pump pressure, so it's little wonder they leak with just a little wear. Also all rubber parts now supplied by Bosch are Viton. I'm pretty sure the seal I took out was Viton, so I can't blame the bio. That said, I'm pretty sure the pump with the Niagara flow was fine when I took it off the car a couple of years ago ... maybe it's just possible sitting static with bio inside did for the seal and gummed up the internals causing them to stick.
Off out into the rain and cold now to fit the seal and swap the pump for a third time. Think I might change the timing belt before too long, I recon that's had a good soaking and I don't want to be changing the head again!
Thanks for the info Tony. I did investigate standard seals but the OD of 31mm doesn't appear to be available. Custom made seals are possible, used them before on an old air cylinder but they are ferociously expensive.
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You seem to be having a right merry dance with this pump, mine went without a hitch compared to yours.
Good call to change the belt once you finally get a leak free pump.
Have a read of the problems JulianF is having with his belt and hopefully you wont suffer like he is.
http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f8/300tdi-cam-belt-failed-too-soon-why-274239.html
I have my dead pump sat doing nothing if it can help, however I have no idea what made it stop, but Jules did have a new seal put in it.
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No hadn't seen that. Brings back memorys though! Don't like the stripped belt teeth. Definitely needs to change the bottom belt pulley whatever the problem.
Where on the M25 ... not that I was in a position to help with a disabled Disco myself!
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He didn't give any more detail than "M25".
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That's bit of a mess. The only time I've seen a belt go like that was from a tensioner pulley bearing failure (starting to seize) which I'm pretty sure was caused by the belt being too tight.
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All done, can't see any bio dripping out, but I'll check more thoroughly in the light tomorrow.
I can't put it down to the seal, because it's a different pump, but the difference in performance is quite marked (for the better). Although if the body of the pump is supposed to be pressurised to 90 psi, leaks of the size I had on both pumps may well have made a significant difference.
Comparing the old and new seals, the wear on the old one is considerable. The new one has two distinct, sharp lips which have all but worn away to a flat surface on the old seal. I don't think bio had a hand in it's degredation as the rubber is still pliable but shows no signs of being over soft.
I know the VE pump in various formats is used on many cars. I took photos of the operation and will happily put a wiki page together if people think it will be of use.
The shredding of Julianf's belt is, I believe a common problem (I had it on my Disco). The solution is to change the bottom pulley for a new design with flanges which makes the belt run true. Without the new pulley the belt can run off center and rub on the casing, hence the shredded bits.
Julian, hope it all goes back together OK and you get mobile soon.
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Every thing on a bloody Discovery is a "common problem" !
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Us Land Rover owners are just martyrs to the marque, and we'll all go to heaven.
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I haven't even been posting here, and yet, it seems, my woes are known.
I was on the hard shoulder within eyesight of J17, travelling clockwise.
Anyhow, ordered all (i hope) the parts this morning, and im told they will be here tomorrow. Rachel and the whippets are staying with friends in Devon, who are giving her lifts to work, and im with family, so it could be worse. Things can normally be worse...
The thread on landyzone that Mark linked to has all the details, so i wont go into them again here.
Julian -
I know youve got the pump re-sealed now, and you did it cheaply, but, if id seen the thread earlier, id have mentioned that i paid GBP 60 to a company (small chain) in Devon who did the same for me. Jules used the same company when his went.
Like i say, youve got it sorted, so its all redundant information, but, if you cant be bothered to do the next one...
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Oddly enough, I just went to post this as JulianF did, but will post it anyway
Sounds like a good deal there Julian, I paid £60 to have a new front seal fitted on a Bosch VE pump at Electro-Diesel in Bodmin. That was with me dropping the pump off and picking it up.
Strangely enough, a new front seal on the VP37 on the RangeRover (I got a new seal fitted as a precaution when I fitted the secondhand pump to cure the fuel quantity adjuster fault code) only cost me half of that.
I wonder if that is because the VP37 is keyed and doesn't need any setting up or whether they were just feeling more generous that day
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With my super-duper printed tool, you don't need to set the pump up, it's really quick even with me doing it!. You can very accurately fit the flange back in the same position it came off.
The seal can be had even cheaper from China if you can wait for delivery and are happy with a minimum order of 30!
Julianf ... have you established a cause for your issues? I'd venture some of the rubber fluff and chord got between the belt and a pulley, causing the tooth stripping and subsequent engine damage.
When my belt went, damage to the rockers was limited to a couple that snapped, I couldn't find any bent ones, so may be you got away lightly.
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Us Land Rover owners are just martyrs to the marque, and we'll all go to heaven.
Only if someone gives you a lift
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Very good!
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Julianf ... have you established a cause for your issues? I'd venture some of the rubber fluff and chord got between the belt and a pulley, causing the tooth stripping and subsequent engine damage.
Its hard to know the final sequence, but i think it was just a matter of time, either way.
What is clear is that the belt largely (but not entirely) stopped moving, and, as the crank sprocket kept turning, it stripped off the teeth. The stripped section got just past the cam sprocket before the crank sprocket lost purchase on the belt.
As mentioned on the other forum, there was a flapping sound, as if somthing was caught in the blower fan. I had time to turn the fan up, and then off, before concluding it was not the cause. I slowed, and pulled into the inside lane, whilst the flapping sound stopped, then started again a couple of times.
The whole thing was probably less than 60 seconds before engine failure, so quite what the exact details were, im not sure.
None of the pulleys etc. seem problematic. The idler seems a little gritty, but spins on fine.
Obviously (now) the cause is the wrong crank sprocket, and belt movement, but how it actually played out in the end is not clear to me.
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if it had no lips anywhere to keep it lined up, then it probably just moved over the edge of the teeth and it got abraded on the edge which caused the belt to fray and weaken and eventually go
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Good to hear you're back on the road Julian.
I had a power increase when I changed my pump, more power when on boost but less off boost, soon fixed with a tweak, followed by a few more tweaks just for fun.
I still need to pull the old pump apart to see why if failed.
JulianF, hope you get yours fixed without too much drama.
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Us Land Rover owners are just martyrs to the marque, and we'll all go to heaven.
Only if someone gives you a lift
Cheeky git.
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Us Land Rover owners are just martyrs to the marque, and we'll all go to heaven.
Only if someone gives you a lift
Cheeky git.
Cheeky, cutting, smug, cruel, hurtful, snide and churlish, but still very funny!
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Us Land Rover owners are just martyrs to the marque, and we'll all go to heaven.
Only if someone gives you a lift
Cheeky git.
Cheeky, cutting, smug, cruel, hurtful, snide and churlish, but still very funny!
I agree with all of the above.
Plus there is an element of truth in it that none of us can deny.
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if it had no lips anywhere to keep it lined up, then it probably just moved over the edge of the teeth and it got abraded on the edge which caused the belt to fray and weaken and eventually go
Its cut a very neat (and alarmingly deep) groove into the timing case cover too.
And straight through the crank dust seal, which i did not order.
In Devon, you can just go into a parts place, whilst here, it seems, noone keeps stock for anything later then 5yrs old : (
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As has been noted on the other forum this failure is due to no lipped pulley being fitted and excessive edge wear resulting in belt failure, early kits having a lipped tensioner and later ones a lipped crank pulley. It's looking like when you last changed the cambelt assuming that it did not have any edge wear (if it had it would have raised questions as to why) that you removed a lipped tensioner and replaced it with a plain one tensioner and not the required lipped crank pulley to go with it. Easy mistake to make if not known about the modification.
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Hmm. When I did the Largo I removed a lipped idler pulley and replaced with a smooth one. But I think they are proven on the Primera version of the engine and not had any issues (in my general paranoia I do periodically check timing belt condition!)
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Still not moving. Anyone want to make any comments? Update on the landyzone thread....
http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f8/300tdi-cam-belt-failed-too-soon-why-274239-2.html
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Were all the clearances wide when you came to reset them ? or tight and had to slacken them ?
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You know it was only a few hours ago, but i think most were tight.
One of them i had to loosen off for another (unrelated) reason, so what the original setting of that was, i dont now, and i think one more was loose by a bit.
Most required something like a quarter turn to loosen, but one, IIRC, needed a couple of turns tightened - but i cant be sure that i had not adjusted this previously, incorrectly.
Im guessing youre looking for valve damage? I reckon 6 of the 8 were all about the same, 1 is 100% unknown as id messed with it, and the last one could have been me or could have needed a couple of turns.
I dont know how significant a couple of turns is anyhow?
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Yes bud if they all needed significant tightening I would be thinking valve damage (not closed completely) as it did happen at a cruising speed and take out all push rods, but hopefully it isn't that. I suppose the only certain way to check is a compression test. Sorry I cant be of any help on timing etc.
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If it was just one valve done, wouldnt it start and run (all be it badly) on the remaining three cylinders?
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the reason for turning engine over a couple of times and then rechecking all the timing marks/pins line up correctly is because it is easy to fit a new loose belt a tooth out, once tensioned and turned over it should all line up, if not it needs re setting.
I would expect it to run with at least one or two bent valves, but not run very well or very quiet, if they were badly bent I would have thought you would have noticed when turning over the engine when doing the tappets.
Other than that have you removed any fuel pipes for access and got air in?
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Nope, not touched the fuel system. But its like that - trying to start on veg with no petrol (as per previous experience).
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If it was just one valve done, wouldnt it start and run (all be it badly) on the remaining three cylinders?
Yes it would I guess, another reason for turning over the engine twice and reinserting alignment tools is firstly to make sure nothing is wrong as you turn it by hand like valves touching as an instance also to double check all is spot on with regard to tension before cranking.
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Frustrating though I do feel for you away from home working on it.
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The Beast... IT LIVES!
Took off the timing belt again, re-did it all. Loosened* off the bolts around the IP. Turned the key - started fine, with no bother.
One bothersome thing, which i dont know is normal -
Took out the keys. Continued to run until i put it in 5th and stalled it.
Started again about 10 mins later. Again ran on after the keys were out, but only for a few seconds, and then stopped itself.
(we're talking normal idle rpm, not out of control)
Need to put lots back together before running it up to temp.
(im going to copy this to the landyzone thread)
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I forgot to say... When i said "Loosened" above, what i really mean is -
Try to undo through access hatch. One bolt rounds head.
Try different sockets to no avail.
Take off timing cover.
Try from the side - still no good.
Walk down the road to borrow grips and get some bolts. Find correct die to clean up thread on bolts. 2nd time lucky.
Walk home
Find grips wont fit
Find bolts have too large a skirt.
Walk to get socket to hammer on.
Turn down bolt skirt on lathe.
Walk home.
Hammer on socket, and undo bolt.
Replace with new (old - cleaned and turned) bolts.
This is what my week has been like so far.
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Great news well done, the running on issue will be a sticky shut off solenoid, most likely gummed up if running veg and would normally resolve once hot.
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I'm glad its running mate, although sounds like it faught you all the way.
sounds like I was right about it being pump timing afterall, which is good news.
The running on can only really be down to a faulty solenoid on the injector pump.
if it was running on its own oil for any reason it would rev uncontrollably, not sit there idling smoothly (and belch smoje too)
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Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the Disco ... The bloody thing's leaking again!!
I think it might be that I put a small bruise in the alloy seat when I was removing the old seal. Mindful of this I put a smear of silicone on the seat before I installed the seal. Obviously didn't work.
Any one got any suggestions as to a suitable sealer to apply on a Viton faced seal?
Also I'd like to try and test it, at least statically, before I put it back into the car. Can any bosh VE pump aficionados tell me if pressurising the pump via the fuel inlet will put pressure on the front shaft seal?
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I don't know if pressurising the inlet will put pressure on the front seal. I spun mine over in the vice with a drill. Just filled the pipe and put the outlet back into the inlet.
That pressurised it. The pipes blew apart in my face.....
Only thing is, after doing that, I think it would be possible to get the timing 180 degrees out when it's put back on. Not entirely sure about it. If it is, I got lucky and got it right first try.
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Is it definitely leaking from the 'bruise' Julian? I assume you checked for loose pipe union etc.
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I don't know if pressurising the inlet will put pressure on the front seal. I spun mine over in the vice with a drill. Just filled the pipe and put the outlet back into the inlet.
That pressurised it. The pipes blew apart in my face.....
Only thing is, after doing that, I think it would be possible to get the timing 180 degrees out when it's put back on. Not entirely sure about it. If it is, I got lucky and got it right first try.
Can't get the timing wrong ... I printed a little device which let me mark the pump to flange position.
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Is it definitely leaking from the 'bruise' Julian? I assume you checked for loose pipe union etc.
Cant be absolutely sure it's the bruise, but it's certainly seems to be the seal as the leak is from the timing belt cover. From looking at the difference between the old and new seal I'd doubt it's the lips of the seal leaking.
It would be lovely if it were a union somewhere and I will recheck just in case, but I feel it in my water it's the bloody seal again.
Anyone any suggestions for an alternative sealant? I've vague recollections of stuff called Holymar of similar some years ago.
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chemical metal?
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+1 chemical metal. Used it to repair all sorts on the ship.
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I don't know if pressurising the inlet will put pressure on the front seal. I spun mine over in the vice with a drill. Just filled the pipe and put the outlet back into the inlet.
That pressurised it. The pipes blew apart in my face.....
Only thing is, after doing that, I think it would be possible to get the timing 180 degrees out when it's put back on. Not entirely sure about it. If it is, I got lucky and got it right first try.
Can't get the timing wrong ... I printed a little device which let me mark the pump to flange position.
I'm not at all sure about this, but I reckon, one turn of the crank pulley, is half a turn of the pump. Therefore, it would be possible to line all the marks up, turn the crank one turn, so the crank and cam are 180 out form the timing marks. You could then give the pump alone another half a turn, re aligning it, but it would still be 180 out in relation to the crank.
The pump need two turns to go through a complete cycle, firing all four cylinders, in the right order. It passes the timing mark twice. If it's half way through the cycle, and you think it's at the start of it, the injection order is wrong.
Or am I missing something?
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I don't know if pressurising the inlet will put pressure on the front seal. I spun mine over in the vice with a drill. Just filled the pipe and put the outlet back into the inlet.
That pressurised it. The pipes blew apart in my face.....
Only thing is, after doing that, I think it would be possible to get the timing 180 degrees out when it's put back on. Not entirely sure about it. If it is, I got lucky and got it right first try.
Can't get the timing wrong ... I printed a little device which let me mark the pump to flange position.
I'm not at all sure about this, but I reckon, one turn of the crank pulley, is half a turn of the pump. Therefore, it would be possible to line all the marks up, turn the crank one turn, so the crank and cam are 180 out form the timing marks. You could then give the pump alone another half a turn, re aligning it, but it would still be 180 out in relation to the crank.
The pump need two turns to go through a complete cycle, firing all four cylinders, in the right order. It passes the timing mark twice. If it's half way through the cycle, and you think it's at the start of it, the injection order is wrong.
Or am I missing something?
Err, to put it in percentage terms I think you're missing about 99% The 1% being I was asking a question about an injection pump!
Useful info all the same!
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I've not used "Chemical metal" before. I've used "Repair metal" to fix the broken leg on Heather, the one legged pump. It seems to have done a good job for her.
This repair metal is just like car body filler, but I guess a bit stronger ... is Chemical metal the same?
What I need to repair is not a massive gouge, I'd recon the "bruise" can't be more than 100 - 200 microns deep and I'm surprised that the Viton coating on the outside of the seal didn't take it up.
There's no possibility filling and machining, so I'd have to use it as a sealant at the time of installing the seal ... is this what you were thinking of?
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I don't know if pressurising the inlet will put pressure on the front seal. I spun mine over in the vice with a drill. Just filled the pipe and put the outlet back into the inlet.
That pressurised it. The pipes blew apart in my face.....
Only thing is, after doing that, I think it would be possible to get the timing 180 degrees out when it's put back on. Not entirely sure about it. If it is, I got lucky and got it right first try.
Can't get the timing wrong ... I printed a little device which let me mark the pump to flange position.
I'm not at all sure about this, but I reckon, one turn of the crank pulley, is half a turn of the pump. Therefore, it would be possible to line all the marks up, turn the crank one turn, so the crank and cam are 180 out form the timing marks. You could then give the pump alone another half a turn, re aligning it, but it would still be 180 out in relation to the crank.
The pump need two turns to go through a complete cycle, firing all four cylinders, in the right order. It passes the timing mark twice. If it's half way through the cycle, and you think it's at the start of it, the injection order is wrong.
Or am I missing something?
Err, to put it in percentage terms I think you're missing about 99% The 1% being I was asking a question about an injection pump!
Useful info all the same!
Sorry, ignore the above, my apologies, the penny has just dropped as to what you were saying, although this part of the whole episode is probably the only bit that went well!
I think there's very little chance of screwing up the timing. When you take the IP out the engine is locked with a pin and the IP drive pulley is held in position with a special tool. The IP drive flange is then unbolted from the pulley and removed from the engine. My tool preserves the relationship between the drive flange and the IP shaft on the bench.
In replacing the seal, there's no need to turn the IP shaft, so it's just a matter of putting the drive flange back on the shaft in exactly the same position as it came off.
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[/quote]
Sorry, ignore the above, my apologies, the penny has just dropped as to what you were saying, although this part of the whole episode is probably the only bit that went well!
I think there's very little chance of screwing up the timing. When you take the IP out the engine is locked with a pin and the IP drive pulley is held in position with a special tool. The IP drive flange is then unbolted from the pulley and removed from the engine. My tool preserves the relationship between the drive flange and the IP shaft on the bench.
In replacing the seal, there's no need to turn the IP shaft, so it's just a matter of putting the drive flange back on the shaft in exactly the same position as it came off.
[/quote]
The point I was trying to make was, if you take the pump and spin it in a vice to pressurise it, then the relationship between the IP shaft and the rest of the engine, is no longer preserved, and stands a 50% chance of being in the wrong place when the timing marks are lined up.
If your not going to pressurise it, to test the seal, which is what I was commenting on, then it's irrelevant anyway.
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I dont think that is right GM. The pump indeed turns at half crankshaft speed. It takes two crankshaft rotations on a 4 stroke engine to fire all the cylinders.
Therefore, the pump fires all four cylinders per revolution of the pump shaft (if it didn't,the internal distribution mechanism would have to be more complex).
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Sorry, ignore the above, my apologies, the penny has just dropped as to what you were saying, although this part of the whole episode is probably the only bit that went well!
I think there's very little chance of screwing up the timing. When you take the IP out the engine is locked with a pin and the IP drive pulley is held in position with a special tool. The IP drive flange is then unbolted from the pulley and removed from the engine. My tool preserves the relationship between the drive flange and the IP shaft on the bench.
In replacing the seal, there's no need to turn the IP shaft, so it's just a matter of putting the drive flange back on the shaft in exactly the same position as it came off.
[/quote]
The point I was trying to make was, if you take the pump and spin it in a vice to pressurise it, then the relationship between the IP shaft and the rest of the engine, is no longer preserved, and stands a 50% chance of being in the wrong place when the timing marks are lined up.
If your not going to pressurise it, to test the seal, which is what I was commenting on, then it's irrelevant anyway.
[/quote]
I see what you're saying. I've changed several pumps on Discos and fitted second hand ones of unknown provenance. Some of the pumps I've turned by hand, never paid any attention to them being 180° out and each time they've worked fine (apart from pissing bio all over the drive). If it's a 50/50 chance maybe I was just lucky on each occasion.
Anyhow I was hoping not to spin the pump, just blank the necessary holes fill it with bio and pressurise it with an air line.
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I dont think that is right GM. The pump indeed turns at half crankshaft speed. It takes two crankshaft rotations on a 4 stroke engine to fire all the cylinders.
Therefore, the pump fires all four cylinders per revolution of the pump shaft (if it didn't,the internal distribution mechanism would have to be more complex).
That does seem logical. I still can't get it straight in my head. Not to worry.
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Julian, as you didn't remove the timing cover and clean it out are you sure it's not bio left from the old pump ?
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Julian, as you didn't remove the timing cover and clean it out are you sure it's not bio left from the old pump ?
Yes I'm sure. There's too much and it's been going on too long. I can't think it would be coming from any where else. If it's not polar or monsoon weather over the weekend I'll have a closer look.
Lucky I bought two seals!
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If the bruise in the body of the pump is as slight as you say I cannot see a seal leaking, Hopefully when you remove the casing it will become obvious. I assume if it is leaking from the seal on the shaft the leak throws out from the pulley all over yet leaking from where you say it will have just run down the back ?
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If the bruise in the body of the pump is as slight as you say I cannot see a seal leaking, Hopefully when you remove the casing it will become obvious. I assume if it is leaking from the seal on the shaft the leak throws out from the pulley all over yet leaking from where you say it will have just run down the back ?
My thoughts exactly the mark is minimal and I softened the edges with a tiny piece of 1200 wet and dry (without the wet!). The lips (it's a double lip seal)were a good snug fit on what looked to be a perfectly finish on the shaft. The taper to which the flange fits, gently expands the lips to working size, so there was no possibility nicking the lips during assembly.
Besides pressure testing the replacement, I'd like to try and pressurise this pump to find just where it is leaking from.
With regard to diagnosing on the car, the drive end of the pump sticks into the cam belt housing, and the leak is only visible from the drain plug at the bottom.
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This was the stuff I was trying to remember earlier in the thread it's called Hylomar blue ... there's a rather poor quality video here ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXiVZIBoHL0
What do folks think?
I've mailed the manufacturers asking about the application and if it's compatible with bio ... If i get one, I'll post their reply.
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Blue Hylomar as I know it is simply a gasket jointing compound that does not dry unlike red Hermatite which does, not suitable for your purpose at all in my honest opinion.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HYLOMAR-UNIVERSAL-BLUE-GASKET-JOINTING-COMPOUND-SEALANT-40g-FUEL-RESISTANT-/281159734843?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item41766d163b
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Why not remove the cam belt cover and run the engine, then you'll see if it's the seal.
Lets face it you'll have to change the cam belt now it's contaminated.
I know it's a fare amount of work, and you'll need to be mindful of having no water in the cooling system, but if the leak is that bad it'll show itself well before any damage is done.
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Just make sure you connect the oil cooler pipes to the cooler (you can sit the whole rad assembly on top of the engine) or block the ends of them before you start the engine.
If you dont, it will spray oil everywhere out of them. In theory it shouldn't unless the engine is hot as the oil thermostat should stop it but, from experience, it does.
But, Mark is quite right, you can run the engine without the front cover, serpentine belt and everything else on.
Just put the crank pulley and bolt back to ensure the cambelt drive dog does not slide on the crankshaft
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I've briefly run the engine before without the belt cover when I had the same issue as Julianf. It's a good thought, but I don't think you'll get a clear enough view to determine where it's leaking from and with the pulley and belt whizzing round the leak may get blown all over the shop.
I'm quite happy to pull the pump again ... it's a 5 minute job for us "old hands"! I've had a look for sectional views of a VE pump and this is about the best I can come up with ....
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Ii1ukGkfijY/Sqo2MWH_npI/AAAAAAAADIs/yFxptX_Rl4g/clip_image002_thumb.jpg?imgmax=800)
Not even sure if it's a VE, many bits look very different, but if the fuel inlet is the same, then pressurising from the fuel inlet would be viable.
However, The nice man in the Bosch service place said that the IP will suck fuel through from the tank and that there was 90 psi on the seal which would imply that the fuel inlet was under vacuum and the seal pressure, therefore they can't be connected as per this drawing.
Getting confused!
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In theory the shaft seal will be under negative pressure (the PSA XUD engine will pull air in the seal if it's gone), however with the lift pump before it that is not the case on a 300tdi.
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In theory the shaft seal will be under negative pressure (the PSA XUD engine will pull air in the seal if it's gone), however with the lift pump before it that is not the case on a 300tdi.
From the design of the seal ... ie the outside face is concave, it looks to me that it's designed to seal pressure from inside the pump, not vacuum.
I thought the seal only saw the lift pump pressure and said this to the guy at the service center. He said no it sees pressure form some part of the IP to the tune of 90 psi.
Still very confused!
Anyhow, I still have a spare IP that I know leaks. If I try various means of pressurizing that and see it's leak from the seal, I'll know how to test the one that's currently on the car.
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OK, up date ... I've discovered you can statically test a VE pump shaft seal with compressed air.
If you blank off the spill back connection (use the original bolt and a 14mm length of 15mm copper in place of the banjo) and connect a compressed air line to the fuel inlet, however the porting is arranged, it will put pressure on the seal.
I tried this with the old pump and it turned out that the seal itself was leaking. There are a series of little dimples on the front face and air was weeing out of one of those, So I can only assume that the metal and Viton make up of the seal had delaminated.
Armed with this information, I set about the fourth IP change. Having got the pump off the car, the reason for the leak on the new seal I fitted was obvious ... it had popped out of it's housing and was sitting with it's front face up against the back of the drive flange.
This makes complete sense as I checked it several times after fitting and no leak was obvious. Some time later it must have popped out causing the leak again. At this point I decided that rather than trying to seal the seal in place, it needed "fixing". After much thought, I whacked it back in with superglue!
After leaving it 10 mins or so I pressurised the pump to 80 psi again and covered the seal in gas leak detector fluid and not a bubble in sight!
I was in the middle of fitting the pump back in the car when bad light stopped play, so hopefully I'll get it back up and running tomorrow. There may be a little issue to deal with though ... when moving the car on to the drive it wouldn't rev and was trying to stall all the time ... Oh that feeling of deja vu !!!
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Back up and running again. Half an hour of ticking over and no leaks ... wonder if it will last?
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What's the stability of superglue in biodiesel? :P
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What's the stability of superglue in biodiesel? :P
Very good question. It was all I had to hand and needed to get the car back on the road.
In reality only a minuscule edge of the superglue will see bio and the area of super glue across the depth of the seal in comparison is enormous.
I think a similar principle applies to Nitrile 'O' rings. I've had 'O' rings sealing pumps running on bio and they've been fine for years.
Time will tell!
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Julian,
How come the seal came out (ie how come it needed the glue)
I have not seen inside, but im surprised the design of the unit does not keep it in place. Im mostly wondering why yours came out, when all the others seem to stay in place?
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Julian,
How come the seal came out (ie how come it needed the glue)
I have not seen inside, but im surprised the design of the unit does not keep it in place. Im mostly wondering why yours came out, when all the others seem to stay in place?
The only thing I did any different was to put a smear of silicone where the mark in the housing was ... but I don't think that would have been the cause. Other than that I've no idea.
It's not an ideal design. If the seal sees pressure, it should really be inserted from the inside. I did consider making a collar then tapping and drilling the body to hold it in place ... there's room between the body and flange, but it would be rather long winded and quite difficult with the shaft in place.