Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum

Biodiesel => Chemistry and process => Topic started by: Tony on December 14, 2014, 10:22:01 AM

Title: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on December 14, 2014, 10:22:01 AM
The Largo is definitely drinking it at an alarming rate. Will 2-ehn help or am I better off thinning with petrol to aid atomisation?
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: greasemonkey on December 14, 2014, 01:26:14 PM
The question is, is it a fault, or the fuel? It could be a fault with the vehicle it self.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on December 14, 2014, 02:42:39 PM
No obvious drips from underneath, really I need to whip the driver's seat out and check the leak off rail isn't leaking... off.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: greasemonkey on December 14, 2014, 02:59:23 PM
I wasn't thinking so much of it running out somewhere, although that is a possibility.
Is there some kind of electric trickery gone awol, that makes it think it's mega cold, so is pumping more fuel through? Cold start not turning itself off?
Would it be doing the same if it was on pump diesel?
Is there a brake dragging? It's automatic, innit? You could easy have one of the drum brakes at the back dragging (or even a disc) which may well not be noticeable in driving, but could add significantly to the fuel consumption.
Anyone pulled the handbrake up lately? Do you mostly use the park position on the shift lever mostly?

Just thinking out loud really, but I'd hesitate to pin it on the bio just yet.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on December 15, 2014, 12:12:05 AM
I wasn't thinking so much of it running out somewhere, although that is a possibility.
Is there some kind of electric trickery gone awol, that makes it think it's mega cold, so is pumping more fuel through? Cold start not turning itself off?
Would it be doing the same if it was on pump diesel?
Is there a brake dragging? It's automatic, innit? You could easy have one of the drum brakes at the back dragging (or even a disc) which may well not be noticeable in driving, but could add significantly to the fuel consumption.
Anyone pulled the handbrake up lately? Do you mostly use the park position on the shift lever mostly?

Just thinking out loud really, but I'd hesitate to pin it on the bio just yet.

Yes it's auto, and I always use the handbrake - though the handbrake is actually a ratchet operated foot pedal with a release handle underneath the dash.  I'm pretty sure nothing is binding as it rolls just fine in neutral.

I have messed with the fuel temperature sensor though to report a higher fuel temp than normal - this was to increase fuelling at idle to prevent a stall problem, with the added side effect of increasing engine power.  This didn't seem to affect fuel economy at all over the summer months - but perhaps now it is causing a problem?  Certainly when driving I've noticed the ECU selecting a high idle until things get warm - enough to run the car along at 20mph without pressing the accelerator.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on December 15, 2014, 12:30:42 AM
Now this is interesting on 2-EHN:

http://www.fragging.de/2EHN.pdf

Quote
This effect is greatest at lower temperature-density conditions, corresponding to low-load and start-up conditions in a diesel engine, and becomes negligible at the highest temperature-density conditions examined.

This paper strongly suggests that 2-EHN has the greatest effect on short, cold started journeys and not to long, hot journeys, which might explain the variable results we've seen reported on the forums.  Since cold short journeys are what I mostly do, I've got some 2-EHN on order to see how it goes.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Jamesrl on December 15, 2014, 10:06:08 AM
From personal experience I can't agree with the above statement ref 2-ehn and hot running, yes it's good for cold starts but I get an 8/9% improvement on mpg over not using it for long runs.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on December 16, 2014, 02:14:32 PM
Interesting.  What ratio are you dosing?  1:1000 or slightly stronger?
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: 1958steveflying on December 16, 2014, 02:23:20 PM
Where are you guys buying it from ?
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on December 16, 2014, 02:33:51 PM
Trinity, £13 for 1l delivered.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231410380937  (I offered £13 and it was automatically accepted).
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: 1958steveflying on December 16, 2014, 03:03:44 PM
Cheers Tony, I'm just about out of all additives now !
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: nigelb on December 16, 2014, 05:06:03 PM
Where are you guys buying it from ?

Better value can be found here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-EHN-Highest-quality-99-9-pure-2-Ethyl-Hexyl-Nitrate-Cetane-Booster-5-Litres-/201078885372?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2ed13c4bfc

£9 per litre represents good value in my book
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: GedsJeep on December 16, 2014, 05:38:01 PM
just for info...

this..

http://www.chemiphase.co.uk/fuelforce-2000-petroleum-diesel-performance-enhancer/

contains no 2-ehn.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: nigelb on December 16, 2014, 06:55:05 PM
just for info...

this..

http://www.chemiphase.co.uk/fuelforce-2000-petroleum-diesel-performance-enhancer/

contains no 2-ehn.

...but that's not for bio....it's for dino.

No idea what's in it...or indeed, what's not in it.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: GedsJeep on December 16, 2014, 07:03:35 PM
me either, but it has been bandied around on vod as 2-ehn.

this is from chemiphase (just up the road from me...)

Dear Sir,

 

We do not supply 2EHN

But we have a product fuel force 2000 which contains several fuel additives, and also contains mixed EHN, type components,

What fuel type are you planning to use this product for and at what concentration,

Does the fuel you intend to treat, have a low cetane number ?

Clive
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: nigelb on December 16, 2014, 07:12:10 PM
I know a little about their bioboost product. I took delivery of some a few years ago and contains 2-EHN at about 30%. Can contain up to 70% methanol.FFS

This product was sold to me in a leaking container. Complained about that and they then sent me another....which also leaked. Some people never learn. Ah well!
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Jamesrl on December 16, 2014, 09:05:20 PM
Interesting.  What ratio are you dosing?  1:1000 or slightly stronger?

I'm using 1.6:1000 or 40ml/25ltr.

I used to dose 1.5:1000 but 2 x 20ml syringes is a lot easier (it's me "I don't give a shite" pills wot do it).
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on December 17, 2014, 08:20:00 AM
I've added 35ml to the estimated 35l in the tank, if that's OK I'll dose the next 25l with 35ml too at Jim's ratio of 1.5:1000.

What is the effect of overdoing it?  Knocking?  I'm bringing 25l of bio with me to dilute the tank with just in case, though at 1:1000 I gather I'm unlikely to see any issues.  I think if anything my fuel pump is slightly retarded.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Jamesrl on December 17, 2014, 11:44:35 AM

What is the effect of overdoing it?  Knocking?

Over dosing can cause a serious leak in the bank balance akin to pouring money down the drain.

It can take a while to find the right dose for your vehicle, increase the dose by 0.1ml/ltr until the increase in benifit stops or reverses then go back to the best result.

Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: 1958steveflying on December 17, 2014, 02:08:40 PM
My recollection of these types of additives is that dosing levels reach a plateau where increasing beyond it either does nothing or can reduce effectiveness. So as Jim say's a waste of money.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on December 17, 2014, 02:50:59 PM
In all fairness though overdosing by an extra 0.5:1000 is what, 25ml per 50l tank or 32p per tank... some people are paying that per litre of oil.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Jamesrl on December 17, 2014, 04:07:22 PM
In all fairness though overdosing by an extra 0.5:1000 is what, 25ml per 50l tank or 32p per tank... some people are paying that per litre of oil.

True but you wouldn't give me 32p every time you fill your tank would you, you don't mind giving it to your supplier though.

Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: nigelb on December 17, 2014, 06:42:01 PM
My recollection of these types of additives is that dosing levels reach a plateau where increasing beyond it either does nothing or can reduce effectiveness. So as Jim say's a waste of money.

I dare say you're right Steve. It's a long winded but essential process to find out what the optimum is. At the moment I'm at 3ml but start a reduction program on my next fill up.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on December 19, 2014, 02:19:01 PM
I tell you what, this 2-EHN is good stuff.  Even at the low dose the engine is a lot smoother following cold starting, and I'm not pushing the throttle anywhere near as far to keep it rolling at 30mph.  It's a bit early to know what the effect on fuel efficiency is but I'm pretty hopeful about this!
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: greasemonkey on December 19, 2014, 05:05:32 PM
Interesting. Got to be good if it needs less throttle.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Jamesrl on December 19, 2014, 07:00:32 PM
I tell you what, this 2-EHN is good stuff.  Even at the low dose the engine is a lot smoother following cold starting, and I'm not pushing the throttle anywhere near as far to keep it rolling at 30mph.  It's a bit early to know what the effect on fuel efficiency is but I'm pretty hopeful about this!

Welcome to our world                                 eventually.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: nigelb on December 19, 2014, 08:37:35 PM
He'll be water washing next ;D
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Jamesrl on December 19, 2014, 09:16:38 PM
He'll be water washing next ;D

He may be a bit slow but he ain't that daft y'know.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: nigelb on December 19, 2014, 09:30:00 PM
He'll be water washing next ;D

He may be a bit slow but he ain't that daft y'know.

Aye..I dare say you're right.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Jamesrl on December 19, 2014, 09:34:15 PM
He'll be water washing next ;D

He may be a bit slow but he ain't that daft y'know.

Aye..I dare say you're right.

I'm not very often wrong but I'm right again.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: nigelb on December 19, 2014, 11:00:44 PM
We never get tired of you telling us that Pops ;)
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Jamesrl on December 20, 2014, 12:36:46 AM
We never get tired of you telling us that Pops ;)

Well that's alright then innit.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on December 20, 2014, 11:43:16 PM
I tell you what, this 2-EHN is good stuff.  Even at the low dose the engine is a lot smoother following cold starting, and I'm not pushing the throttle anywhere near as far to keep it rolling at 30mph.  It's a bit early to know what the effect on fuel efficiency is but I'm pretty hopeful about this!

Welcome to our world                                 eventually.

I'm perpetually sceptical about "wonder chemicals" that can affect combustion at such low dilutions so I'm pleasantly surprised.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Glycer-rides on December 21, 2014, 01:06:01 AM
I've been thinking it's worth a try... and now I'm convinced that's so.

Usually do acetone @ 0.15%, but think it's pretty close to a placebo with my bio.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: 1958steveflying on January 27, 2015, 06:56:28 PM
Just an update for those who are interested, I am about 600 ml into the 1 litre I bought, it has been used in my Galaxy which is on 50/50 ish bio dino our other Peugeot 1.6Hdi which is on dino and more recently my brother inlaws Audi 2.5tdi following what I can only say is amazing transformation to my Galaxy. I was beginning to think I would have to possibly replace or get overhauled the injectors as it was starting to sound really harsh and drive sluggish. I dosed at 3ml per litre for 70litres of fuel and 2ml per litre since then. The other cars have had 1 ml per litre added but only for the last couple of weeks or so so nothing to report on them yet.
   The Galaxy is like a new car on steroids ! quicker to start, quieter at idle and drives like a dream. No need to floor it on fast roads just squeeze the throttle and she flies up to 100 in a breeze. Just bought 5 litres half given to my Bro inlaw for his Audi and the rest for my cars, it will go in the camper tomorrow and I shall take her for a drive to get it into the system but that wont get many miles for a couple of months yet.

    How are others getting on ?
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on January 28, 2015, 12:54:31 AM
Still using it, back to summer MPGs now :)
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on April 30, 2015, 11:16:02 AM
Still sold on the 2-EHN, just ordered another 5l, I think I'll keep using it over the summer too.  Been dosing 40ml in 25l of bio (1.6:1000).
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: 1958steveflying on April 30, 2015, 02:51:59 PM
I am totally sold on it too.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: dgs on April 30, 2015, 04:16:46 PM
I wonder if Nitro Methane would work, I still have 5 litres left from my model days.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: nigelb on April 30, 2015, 05:14:07 PM
Still sold on the 2-EHN, just ordered another 5l, I think I'll keep using it over the summer too.  Been dosing 40ml in 25l of bio (1.6:1000).

Who did you buy it from Tony? Did you use the 'make offer' with Trinity?
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Keef on April 30, 2015, 09:45:33 PM
It's funny stuff. I've been dosing my veg with 30ml per 20ltrs and it doesn't seem to make any noticeable difference in my 2.5di transit and yet others rave about it.

I'm going to carry on using it though because I bought 5 litres!
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: biobill on April 30, 2015, 10:06:31 PM
I bought 5ltrs of 2-ehn and I found it made no difference to my car/van try in mates car the same total waste of money in my opinion. but on the other hand I been using acetone as a additive and find it really makes big difference in the performance of my old van
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on May 01, 2015, 06:07:36 PM
Still sold on the 2-EHN, just ordered another 5l, I think I'll keep using it over the summer too.  Been dosing 40ml in 25l of bio (1.6:1000).

Who did you buy it from Tony? Did you use the 'make offer' with Trinity?

No I got it from that power.enhancer seller you linked earlier in the thread, as you point out better value per litre.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: nigelb on May 02, 2015, 12:54:09 AM
I see that Trinity have dropped their price...now £38.99 BIN inc delivery for 5lt but they also have the offer button. I wonder what price they have set for accepting an offer.

On December 16th 2014 power enhancer was best value...looks like trinity is now.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Keef on May 02, 2015, 02:43:39 PM
I had my offer of £37 inc postage accepted when I bought mine from them in July 14.
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on May 02, 2015, 06:58:19 PM
Didn't see that trinity had a 5l one on eBay, bit late for me this time but have you got a link?
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: nigelb on May 02, 2015, 11:27:41 PM
Didn't see that trinity had a 5l one on eBay, bit late for me this time but have you got a link?

http://www.trinity-research.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=21_25_26&products_id=50

I cant find the ebay advert but just pulled this from the Trinity website
Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: GedsJeep on June 16, 2015, 11:59:55 PM
took the rexton down to cosford airshow.

90 miles of 80mph motorway and an hour in traffic idling.

the same back

bit more running round

total miles 280

used 46L. with 20ml in 20L

i think thats about 120 odd miles to a cubbie at 80mph.

in a 2.9L 2.5 tonne truck.

not sure what that is to the gallon?

Title: Re: Poor winter fuel economy
Post by: Tony on June 17, 2015, 07:58:23 AM
Google is great for this kind of conversion, so long as you remember to inform it that they are imperial (not US) gallons:

https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en#hl=en&q=280%2F46+miles+per+litre+in+miles+per+imperial+gallon

Result - 27.7mpg.  Pretty respectable for the vehicle.  Automatic box?

At the moment I'm not seeing any clear gains from using 2-EHN now we're in the peak of summer, so I've stopped adding it.  I think it's great for cold, short journeys, but makes little or no difference (even in winter) to long journeys.

Perhaps this is why people's results are so variable?