Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
Vegetable oil motoring => Vehicles => Topic started by: Julian on May 09, 2014, 08:42:09 PM
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Is there anyone on here running a twin tank system?
If not why not?
Is it the expense/complication of the installation or just simpler to cut with petrol, filter and use?
If the latter, is heating required and if so what do you use?
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Is there anyone on here running a twin tank system?
yeah camper van on this site whole build
If not why not?
me loves a challenge :(
Is it the expense/complication of the installation or just simpler to cut with petrol, filter and use?
does pan out to say under 200 / also on single tank 406 in winter use miss fuel to thin to start
If the latter, is heating required and if so what do you use?
heating petrol causes air locks
406 has RM mod filter / van has vailliant heat exchanger
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Sorry Paul, I completely forgot your van was twin tanked ... put it down to senility!
You built the controller for it ... that was the bit I was interested in. What functions did it have?
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I'm not, because.......
Although my engine (smiley transit) is a direct injection, this particular engine, a York, doesn't have the same tendency to suffer from ring gumming.
The main reason to run twin tank is to mitigate the risk of ring gumming in a direct injection engine.
At some point, in the imaginary future, I'm going to twin tank, and have the second tank heated, to help with winter running of veg and bio.
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So what would be your ultimate wish list control system?
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Who, Me?
Voice activated, ha ha ha.
Sorry.........
I'd just have switches, changing over three way valves, to change the fuel source. I'd have the veg oil in an insulated tank, and pump it through a FPHE. No need to go very hot. 40c would be fine, IMO. It would stay hot for days like that, even in the winter, I think.
I'd have all the gubbins in the back of the van, rather than under the bonnet, and run the pipes through the cab.
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Who, Me?
Voice activated, ha ha ha.
Sorry.........
Both you and Paul and anyone else who knows about these things.
Voice activation is getting pretty sophisticated, but when 99% of the human population can't understand a Welsh accent, a machine stands no chance.
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Who, Me?
Voice activated, ha ha ha.
Sorry.........
Both you and Paul and anyone else who knows about these things.
Voice activation is getting pretty sophisticated, but when 99% of the human population can't understand a Welsh accent, a machine stands no chance.
Ha ha ha. PMSL.
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Had to Google PMSL.
So ...
Switch valves when fuel temp reaches a preset temp. (where would you measure the temp?) From my little knowledge they need switching back in time for the engine to stop on diesel.
Monitor/display oil tank temp and ... control a water valve? Any other temperatures useful? Ambient?
Any trace heating required?
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Is there anyone on here running a twin tank system?
Not me.
If not why not?
Ive not found a sensible tank location in the disco (i dont want it inside) and i also think it may cost me more in insurance than it will save me (due to not having so many insurers to choose from)
The other landrover, when i get it off the SORN, will be twin tanked (i have some of the bits already), as its on a modified vehicles policy anyhow, and the intention it to add another tank anyhow, for increased range.
Are you considering twinning your Disco? If so, what's your plan for tanks?
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Are you considering twinning your Disco?
No, I'll defiantly stick with bio.
Could you get a small tank or tanks under the bonnet or possibly front wings?
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I'd just have the temp gauge in the second tank. If I was really getting sophisticated, I guess I could rig a thermostat to the pump, that takes it around the FPHE, instead of a switch.
Even better would be have it so the pump only comes on when the coolant is up to temp.
I'd jsut have to remember to purge with diesel a mile or so from home.
What usually happens with my best plans and ideas, is that it ends up cobbled together with binder twine and duct tape.........
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I used to twin tank
just standard twin tank setup, but with a good lift pump because engines were common rail
only thing I did different was att an extra 3 way valve, so while I was running on diesel and warming up, I could leave the lift pump running circulating fuel up from the tank, through the fphe, through the filter (extra valve here) and then back down to the tank... so all the fuel lines, filters etc.. were nice and warm ready for me switching over
I did 10k miles in one van, and 80k in another (both common rail)... but then I started driving less and spending more time in the factory... I don;t know how but every other driver killed multiple injection pumps and sets of injectors so it ended up cheaper to use diesel :-(
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Temperature is really secondary to the fact.
What I'd want to see is a measurement of viscosity, along with fuel pressure of diesel, pressure of veg, pressure at IP inlet, filter differential pressure, and engine coolant temperature.
I'd want it to automatically switch to veg when viscosity gets within a certain band, and I'd want it to blend it in slowly to allow the IP to warm up with the warm fuel.
In fact, I'd probably redesign the plumbing a bit and have the heat exchanger in the looped fuel return with a proportional valve on it to be able to regulate the temperature/viscosity of the fuel going around the loop.
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Sorry Paul, I completely forgot your van was twin tanked ... put it down to senility!
You built the controller for it ... that was the bit I was interested in. What functions did it have?
its basically 99% automatic, I start up and drive off just like any other car/van that doesn't have a twin tank, the controller does it all, I touch nothing on the twin tank system, I have visual aids that let me know what part of its procedure its at (LED's/lights + temp display/relay) at any given time, LED for each individual one (diesel/veg/purge) and a 4th LED for fuel tank sender unit switching over automatically aswell combined with a switch (flick the switch back and forth) allows me to see what the fuel level is in each tank at any time as im driving along or not, so 2x fuel sender units 1 in each tank linked to (original van dashboard gauge = very nice) had the AUX tank made to be able to use exact same sender unit as original, 9 and a quarter inch depth (made life easy on wiring up) and also a perfect reading of fuel level just like original, also a main switch (power-on/power-off/purge) temperature controller can be set at any temp to switch valves for any given vehicle, some cars may need hotter than others? before it fires into injection pump, case in point the dreaded LUCAS pumps (had a lucas on my peugeot 205 first twin tank)
(http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8145/dsc00976kp.jpg)
(http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/9939/20121111154225.jpg)
(http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/5003/20121111151759.jpg)
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I'm not, because.......
Although my engine (smiley transit) is a direct injection, this particular engine, a York, doesn't have the same tendency to suffer from ring gumming.
The main reason to run twin tank is to mitigate the risk of ring gumming in a direct injection engine.
At some point, in the imaginary future, I'm going to twin tank, and have the second tank heated, to help with winter running of veg and bio.
not sure about veg tank heating or not??? I have never had a problem there so to me seems a lot of expense and time and a pain in rear to fit. when for me not needed. don't forget the fuel is running round in a loop it picks up from the sender unit and dumps back to the sender unit, the sender unit is usually from my experience located in tank in another plastic housing localizing the warm veg return so in an effect the fuel is running in a loop (vented no air locks - standard) so dumped warm return fuel is being sucked back up again! this seems to me enough to keep tank oil warm enough for even the coldest winters, and after all its only the veg just before the injection pump that needs to be hot when going in to be used.
this leads onto the cold start veg being on very cold days thicker than normal and harder to pull through the pipes, for this I don't use original pipes on main veg tank (original van tank) mine are uprated to 8mm ID. also depends if your fuel tank is plastic or metal I guess plastic being more sympathetic and not get as cold and quicker to heat up...
rather than heated tank, insulated fuel in and return pipes maybe better, although I don't have this.
(http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/4721/20121106134151.jpg)
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Who, Me?
Voice activated, ha ha ha.
Sorry.........
I'd just have switches, changing over three way valves, to change the fuel source. I'd have the veg oil in an insulated tank, and pump it through a FPHE. No need to go very hot. 40c would be fine, IMO. It would stay hot for days like that, even in the winter, I think.
I'd have all the gubbins in the back of the van, rather than under the bonnet, and run the pipes through the cab.
all under the bonnet is tidier I think except aux tank although people do use a water header tank under bonnet for a small amount of startup diesel, mine is set to 40c to switch but soon rises to 80/85c while fully running/driving.
60c veg in my shed tank insulated (160 ltrs) stays warm into the third day, 4th day back to normal near enough, plus no wind chill in the shed a van would have this to add to cooling
the main FPHE needs to be as close to IP as possible I think on the pipework I only have a short run of pipe so less heat loss when oil is leaving FPHE and hitting IP (6 inch of rubber pipe) which you could insulate but I don't need it.
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So what would be your ultimate wish list control system?
FULLY automatic would be nice I say fully as the car doesn't know when you will be stopping to purge out...
can be done but way to much hassle for what its worth
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Had to Google PMSL.
So ...
Switch valves when fuel temp reaches a preset temp. (where would you measure the temp?) From my little knowledge they need switching back in time for the engine to stop on diesel.
Monitor/display oil tank temp and ... control a water valve? Any other temperatures useful? Ambient?
Any trace heating required?
my relay/temp controller part has its probe on the FPHE
(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2199/dsc00977ar.jpg)
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I'd just have the temp gauge in the second tank. If I was really getting sophisticated, I guess I could rig a thermostat to the pump, that takes it around the FPHE, instead of a switch.
Even better would be have it so the pump only comes on when the coolant is up to temp.
I'd jsut have to remember to purge with diesel a mile or so from home.
What usually happens with my best plans and ideas, is that it ends up cobbled together with binder twine and duct tape.........
in the past I have wired a buzzer to the twin tank system, if I haven't purged and I open the driver door buzzer goes off (live or neg) taken from interior light switch in door frame
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Temperature is really secondary to the fact.
What I'd want to see is a measurement of viscosity, along with fuel pressure of diesel, pressure of veg, pressure at IP inlet, filter differential pressure, and engine coolant temperature.
I'd want it to automatically switch to veg when viscosity gets within a certain band, and I'd want it to blend it in slowly to allow the IP to warm up with the warm fuel.
In fact, I'd probably redesign the plumbing a bit and have the heat exchanger in the looped fuel return with a proportional valve on it to be able to regulate the temperature/viscosity of the fuel going around the loop.
mine blends it, starts on diesel so pump and lines and injectors have diesel in them and as the veg comes in mixes with veg gradually changing from diesel to 100% veg, so no hard shocks...
also IP gets warmer as engine runs anyway
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The reason I'm asking is that having seen what the Arduino board on the printer is capable of, I've bought a spare to play with.
Many sensors can be had VERY cheaply and getting a load of sensors to interact and give outputs is no significant cost beyond the cost of the controller as it a matter of writing code (sounds easy!!!). Arduino mega boards can be had for around a tenner, but other versions can be as little as five quid. Multi line LCD displays can also be had quite cheaply.
Thermistors for temperature weigh in at a few pence each. There are numerous other sensors available which could be employed ie a sonic distance sensor could, in theory, monitor tank level but I doubt it's suitable for the duty.
Unfortunately I haven't seen any cheap viscosity or suitable pressure sensors. Do you know of any, James? I can see that monitoring viscosity makes sense, but I'd have thought the viscosity/temperature relationship was quite uniform in our simplestic world. I guess at the end of the day as far as the controller is concerned, it's just an input so, as far a writing the code is concerned i makes no difference, the input pin just needs setting to the appropriate signal.
The biggest problem, as has been pointed, out is purging the system. Arduinos will accept a signal from a GPS module and could be programmed to automatically switch within a certain radius of a "home" location. Great for inbound journeys, but would require lat and long coordinates for each outbound. Anyway, the cost of a GPS module, although cheap for what it does, is high compared to the other components.
I may never build a working version, perhaps only a prototype, but just want a project to play with, the main aim being to learn a little in the process.
Thinking on this purging business, when I've pulled IPs appart in the past, I was surprised at the volume of fuel they held ... probably about ½ a litre at a guess. Is the considered opinion that this volume, along with all the interconnecting pipe work needs to be purged?
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Legal issues aside, with a twin filter setup, the car could just be idled for x time before stopping to purge.
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What about forcing a purge through the IP with a pump ... would mean drilling and tapping the IP casing if there's a convenient point, but a back flow of pure diesel to the oil tank might only take a few seconds.
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What about forcing a purge through the IP with a pump ... would mean drilling and tapping the IP casing if there's a convenient point, but a back flow of pure diesel to the oil tank might only take a few seconds.
This may protect the pump, but would not protect DI engines against ring gumming.
Think about a turbo timer, these keep the engine running for a while after the ignition has been turned off.
If this function could be added to the controller it could be used for purging, thus completely automatic.
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What about forcing a purge through the IP with a pump ... would mean drilling and tapping the IP casing if there's a convenient point, but a back flow of pure diesel to the oil tank might only take a few seconds.
This may protect the pump, but would not protect DI engines against ring gumming.
Think about a turbo timer, these keep the engine running for a while after the ignition has been turned off.
If this function could be added to the controller it could be used for purging, thus completely automatic.
I say easy (won't be for me), but theoretically it would be easy as far as the controller is concerned, just an input from the ignition switch and an out put delayed by time, temp, viscosity, whatever. Making that work with the vehicle's system might be another matter.
Do vehicles have delays built in when they are turned off ... I'd have thought there may have been safety issues?
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Unfortunately I haven't seen any cheap viscosity or suitable pressure sensors. Do you know of any, James? I can see that monitoring viscosity makes sense, but I'd have thought the viscosity/temperature relationship was quite uniform in our simplestic world.
Sadly not. Viscocity sensors are pretty hard to come by. There are a few pressure sensors around that would probably do the job - "MPX pressure sensor" in eBay turns up a number of hits. They're designed for air, so you'd need some sort of isolation diaphragm.
Really, my last post was just splurting out what I'd like in an ideal world.
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What about forcing a purge through the IP with a pump ... would mean drilling and tapping the IP casing if there's a convenient point, but a back flow of pure diesel to the oil tank might only take a few seconds.
This may protect the pump, but would not protect DI engines against ring gumming.
Think about a turbo timer, these keep the engine running for a while after the ignition has been turned off.
If this function could be added to the controller it could be used for purging, thus completely automatic.
I say easy (won't be for me), but theoretically it would be easy as far as the controller is concerned, just an input from the ignition switch and an out put delayed by time, temp, viscosity, whatever. Making that work with the vehicle's system might be another matter.
Do vehicles have delays built in when they are turned off ... I'd have thought there may have been safety issues?
On older cars a delay would not be hard, modern common rail engines may be a different mater though.
Safety issues are something that would need to be taken into account.
Something like my old merc would be fine as being an electronically controlled auto you could not take it out of park without the ignition being on.
On the other hand it had a vacuum controlled stop solenoid so not so easy there.
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Unfortunately I haven't seen any cheap viscosity or suitable pressure sensors. Do you know of any, James? I can see that monitoring viscosity makes sense, but I'd have thought the viscosity/temperature relationship was quite uniform in our simplestic world.
Sadly not. Viscocity sensors are pretty hard to come by. There are a few pressure sensors around that would probably do the job - "MPX pressure sensor" in eBay turns up a number of hits. They're designed for air, so you'd need some sort of isolation diaphragm.
Really, my last post was just splurting out what I'd like in an ideal world.
I understood it was an "ultimate" wish, and probably not economically viable. But all input is valid, very often an unattainable idea sparks other ideas which are.
One place I worked at we occasionally had what we called a "silly half hour" down the pub. Suppose they call it brain storming these days, but we just used to throw stupid ideas around about the products and go off on tangents. Amazingly one or two really good ideas sprung out of this nonsense.
Would pressure against an orifice plate equate to viscosity?
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Would pressure against an orifice plate equate to viscosity?
Yes, but it also depends on flow rate. So unless you've got an accurate measure of that, your viscosity maths will be out.
I suppose it wouldn't actually need to be normalised or calibrated. You could just use diesel flowing through the orifice as your base line and use it as a point to aim for.
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my purge has a purge timer which I can set to any time, at this moment its set to 1 min 30 secs if I remember rightly, and purge timer LED is one of the flashing kind so flashes away till time is up letting me know its finished...
also to note my neighbours twin tank system VW T4 2.4 non turbo (they don't come or made with turbos) but VW enthusiasts fit VOLVO turbo running gear to make them turbo, my mate has this, (goes like shizz off a shovel) in 5th up hills still accelerating! in 1 min 30 secs will throw way more diesel through the pump/lines/injectors than my Peugeot boxer 2.5D, so his purge is less time.
also to note about purging I look at it like this to do a real purge meaning exchange 100% veg oil for 100% diesel would take way way longer than 1 min 30 secs, like mentioned IP's hold different varying amounts of fuel in them, most of it being a resivior of fuel sat there if needed, a purge to me is mainly clearing out the fuel in and out pipes and a little diluting down of the IP/lines/injectors so theres no hard cold fire up next cold start...
(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/2909/dsc00947h.jpg)
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I've got to this point ...
Both lines currently read the same sensor, but additional sensors are easily added.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/Arduino and display.jpg)
Haven't really got a clue what I'm doing, just copying and pasting stuff, but it seems to work!
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must say looking the part, will be following this one, has it cost much in parts? and can you get it to most things needed? or potentially can do it?
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A slightly more complex version can autonomously pilot a quadcopter via GPS waymarks, so yes the board is way more than capable.
The limiting factor is my ability to understand how it all works and program it!
Cheapest I've seen is Arduino £7, display £3, thermistor 20p, resistor, probably 2p. Will probably need relays and a few more bits like enclosure, buttons, LEDs and maybe a bigger display, but still going to be very cheap.
Other, simpler controllers are available, but need a different arrangement to connect to the PC. These can be had for around 4 quid.
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ok
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Got three temperature inputs now, but the LCD isn't really big enough to display all the info. Mines a 16 column by 2 line. I think 20 column by 4 line displays are available and still quite cheap.
I'll add an input to sense when the ignition is switched on. Any other inputs needed or desirable?
Currently dismantled most if it to try and tidy things up. It was starting to resemble the proverbial birds nest, but before I did I got the three temperatures and a "purge" warning with flashing cursor on the screen.
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I'm beginning to think that an arduino controlled bio processor is looking tempting :)
Presumably there must be a shield available to connect it to an RJ45 ethernet cable which would make internet monitoring and even control a realistic proposition
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I'm beginning to think that an arduino controlled bio processor is looking tempting :)
Presumably there must be a shield available to connect it to an RJ45 ethernet cable which would make internet monitoring and even control a realistic proposition
A processor controller was my first thought, but a veg controller was way more plausible as a first project.
If you understood what these things are capable of controlling a 3D printer, an automated processor would be child's play in comparison. It's all down to having the brains to programme the thing ... not an area at which I excel, but it's great fun and most rewarding playing.
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sounding good Julian, what are the 3 temp sensers for? why the ignition sense wire? wouldn't just living the system up by a power feed to the unit work when ignition is switched on? say like the radio powers up when turning the key, infact could use that wire being radios are usually centralized in the dash column. and it will already be fused to at the board.
you aiming at a processor control now or twin tank control?
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sounding good Julian, what are the 3 temp sensers for? why the ignition sense wire? wouldn't just living the system up by a power feed to the unit work when ignition is switched on? say like the radio powers up when turning the key, infact could use that wire being radios are usually centralized in the dash column. and it will already be fused to at the board.
you aiming at a processor control now or twin tank control?
Three sensors, just because it's possible. I was thinking Oil temp, Tank temp and ambient. You don't have to use them all, they will be there if you need them. Initial thoughts were to have a power supply switched on by the ignition and, but if you switch the car off without purging, power would be available to sound an alarm.
All sorts of things are possible. I had envisaged a page in the firmware where you can choose how many sensors your system uses and what you want to use them for ... all just thoughts at the moment, it's down to my ability to do it.
It would be good to do both. A veg system is much more simple so I thought I'd play with that first.
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you mention firmware can you get in and play with that too?
:)
what programming language is it using?
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I know it can accept C+ and some other stuff, but typically this is the sort of "code" I've been playing with ...
**************************************************
/*
LiquidCrystal Library - Hello World
Demonstrates the use a 16x2 LCD display. The LiquidCrystal
library works with all LCD displays that are compatible with the
Hitachi HD44780 driver. There are many of them out there, and you
can usually tell them by the 16-pin interface.
This sketch prints "Hello World!" to the LCD
and shows the time.
The circuit:
* LCD RS pin to digital pin 12
* LCD Enable pin to digital pin 11
* LCD D4 pin to digital pin 5
* LCD D5 pin to digital pin 4
* LCD D6 pin to digital pin 3
* LCD D7 pin to digital pin 2
* LCD R/W pin to ground
* 10K resistor:
* ends to +5V and ground
* wiper to LCD VO pin (pin 3)
Library originally added 18 Apr 2008
by David A. Mellis
library modified 5 Jul 2009
by Limor Fried (http://www.ladyada.net)
example added 9 Jul 2009
by Tom Igoe
modified 22 Nov 2010
by Tom Igoe
This example code is in the public domain.
http://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/LiquidCrystal
*/
// include the library code:
#include <LiquidCrystal.h>
// initialize the library with the numbers of the interface pins
LiquidCrystal lcd(12, 11, 5, 4, 3, 2);
void setup() {
// set up the LCD's number of columns and rows:
lcd.begin(16, 2);
// Print a message to the LCD.
lcd.print("hello, world!");
}
void loop() {
// set the cursor to column 0, line 1
// (note: line 1 is the second row, since counting begins with 0):
lcd.setCursor(0, 1);
// print the number of seconds since reset:
lcd.print(millis()/1000);
**************************************************
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bit like web site scripting
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Only in the sense that I know diddly squat about that too and muddle through copy and pasting stuff!
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Only in the sense that I know diddly squat about that too and muddle through copy and pasting stuff!
that how i used to use it and change settings to see what happens trying to get a grip on it, had a very short tad on java too
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Just a quick update ...
I had a tidy up, I know it doesn't look like it. I cut a baseboard, printed a stand for the LCD and got hold of a lovely rainbow coloured cable for it.
Still monitoring three temperatures (surprising how similar all the readings are). The word "Purge" can be switched on and off to indicate purge cycle.
Need to look at getting the temperatures to switch valves next.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/LCD three temps.jpg)
The above uses three thermistors to sense the temperature. I bought some other, smaller thermistors to try and boy, are they small ...
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/Mini thermistor.JPG)
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must say it looks the part there Julian
8)
although the screen has gone all shiny from photo so cant read it, might be the flash on camera?
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It's just ledgable ... all temperatures are within 0.2°C! The problem was the screen back light was so bright that the camera flash didn't go off.
With a darker screen the flash may work, but the screen will most likely get over exposed.