Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
General => Chatter => Topic started by: lozzzzzz on March 24, 2014, 07:05:44 AM
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I hope this is the right place for an introduction.
Hi folks, I've been bothering one of your members for a while now and he's been very helpful. Thanks RJ (not sure of your name on here)
I thought it was about time I joined up. I've found your Wiki page very informative and have started buying bits to put together a bio rig. I've started putting up a lean-to outside, I've got a pump on the way and have picked up a couple of barrels and made a cone. That's about it for now. Hopefully I'll get it attached this week then start the long process of stopping my bird-poo welds from leaking :)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140315_120309.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140315_120309.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140323_120641.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140323_120641.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140323_133719.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140323_133719.jpg.html)
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Welcome to the forum! Looks like you are going to be busy :)
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welcome
Hereford ah, we are neighbours
;D
would rj be dickjotec?
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Hi Lozzzz
Looks like it is going well. As you can see I am dickjotec on here. Keep us posted.
Weld a steel nipple into the point of the cone to attach fittings. I should have a spare if you need one.
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Hi, welcome to the forum and wiki.
Looks like you've made a good start with an excellent mentor.
It would be great if you could photograph and document your build for a new wiki page. We've got lots of info, but not a complete build from scratch.
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Hello Lozzzzzz. Looks like you're building a great processor from the start, but don't be fooled as you'll be up grading something pretty soon lol. All the best with the build as I still find it the most enjoyable part.
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Hi and thanks all for the welcome.
Where abouts are you Rotary Motion? I live but half a mile from Dickjotec, but all the garage action takes place at my Parents house near Bromyard.
Dick, The welding went better than I thought it would (but I haven't tested it yet :) ) The nipple is next on the list. Thanks for the offer, I've got to look into what size to go with yet. The pump is rather a beasty at 300l/min and has 1.25" and 1.5" fittings so I'm hoping 1" will do. I think I'll buy a pipe threading tool and do a whole load at the same time. How big is your spare?
Julian, Dick certainly knows his stuff and I've been over to consume his time on more than one occasion now :) I'd love to do a project thread on here that could be transferred to the wiki?? I've done a rather extensive thread on my car over the last 4 years so perhaps something like this for the processor would be good?
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=149&t=989675&i=0&mid=&nmt=
I'll start up another thread when more progress is made, I should be back on it Tuesday night :) I can't wait its been a while since I've been in the thick of a project :)
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Hello and welcome
I see you've pulled an edge out on the cone, would I be correct in assuming you intend to weld it to the bottom bead?
There's a problem with that idea, the bead has a silicon type seal spun into it that burns away during welding leaving a nice 360 deg leak above the bead.
Cut the bead off and pull the cone edge parallel with the drum body and weld the lap joint.
You might be able to see the lap joint in this picture.
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii82/jamesrl47/MarksreactorBottompipes.jpg) (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jamesrl47/media/MarksreactorBottompipes.jpg.html)
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Wow, long thread! Car looks great, there's a great deal of work gone into that.
It really would be easier to stick the info in the wiki in the first place. We could set up a gallery which lays out all the photos neatly or you could just up load and intersperse with text. Either way the photos can have specific text in boxes underneath.
Perhaps a layout similar to the tips and wrinkles pages ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Tips_and_wrinkles_1 But at the end of the day it can be pretty much whatever you want.
Somewhere there's a page with all the graphical symbols for the diagrams, if you want to delve that deep.
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You might be able to see the lap joint in this picture.
The new Oxford blue does no favours when it comes to photographs!
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I have been in the car and can confirm it goes like stink! Probably the fastest accelerating car I have been in.
The nipples are 3/4 bsp about 1 inch diameter from memory.
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The nipples are 3/4 bsp about 1 inch diameter from memory.
When I first read that I thought it was the effect driving fast had on you!
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That car is awesome. I have been seriously considering a Scimitar for an electric car conversion for some time now. I love the look!
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You might be able to see the lap joint in this picture.
The new Oxford blue does no favours when it comes to photographs!
'ave a nuva look moaning molly.
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Love the car. Yous an enjinear.
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Jamesrl, I pulled an edge out to give as much area as possible really, it would be messy but less likely to burn holes in the metal than if it was just welding an edge to an edge. I was thinking of cutting the barrel a bit above the joint really, but hadn't fully made up my mind yet. Good point with the sealer though, I'll defo not do it there :)
Julian, I'd be happy to do whatever you like really I wasn't expecting there to be interest in another project thread as I imagine you've all done it, it would be cool to have a part in the wiki, you might need to correct some things though. I'm so familiar with the car project now, but I'm a real beginner with this! On that note I'm not even sure how the BSP pipe nomenclature works!
Dick, is 3/4 BSP the internal diameter making it about 1" OD? As you can see I'm still a little unsure about this but might have a better idea what I need when the pump arrives. Thanks again for the offer.
Thanks for the car comments, its so much fun, making and driving :) Back on the road soon too :)
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It looks like your drum is a clip-top. Isn't the seal for those in the lid? If so there shouldn't be an issue welding to the roll on the open end.
We're always interested in new builds. If I can ever find a cheap plasma cutter I'm ready embark on one myself, but it's as much to make the wiki more complete for the benefit of new comers than anything else.
Don't worry about editing the wiki, it's really not that difficult and quite enjoyable once you get going. You'll get loads of help if you post up a problem on the forum and I'm more than happy to start the page off for you.
I've just given you wiki editing rights so you can have a play if you wish. There's quite a lot of info on getting started both on here and the wiki.
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hi lolzzzzzzz
I live in bromyard 8) but I don't make bio, just a veg runner...
if you like car project threads check out me van thread on here
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http://www.biopowered.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,748.0.html
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Julian, thanks for that I will have a go at some point, I can't promise when but I'll certainly document and put it up there at some point. I've got work to do now :( but came back on as I forgot to comment on therecklessengineers Scimitar comment.
I couldn't agree more about the shape, that's the main attraction for me, that and the lack of this rusty body panels :)
They are deceptively heavy though, not a great start for a small EV, unless you're going crazy with a short lived drag racer with ridiculously high voltage :) in which case its a great starting point with a very strong axle.
Oh, Rotary, you're very close then, I wonder if we've met? That's a fantastic project, the work looks really well thought out and well made. Have you seen (heard) the Scimitar about town?
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Julian, thanks for that I will have a go at some point, I can't promise when but I'll certainly document and put it up there at some point. I've got work to do now :( but came back on as I forgot to comment on therecklessengineers Scimitar comment.
I couldn't agree more about the shape, that's the main attraction for me, that and the lack of this rusty body panels :)
They are deceptively heavy though, not a great start for a small EV, unless you're going crazy with a short lived drag racer with ridiculously high voltage :) in which case its a great starting point with a very strong axle.
Oh, Rotary, you're very close then, I wonder if we've met? That's a fantastic project, the work looks really well thought out and well made. Have you seen (heard) the Scimitar about town?
no don't think so? although I tend to switch off a lot ask anyone here, and go off on one to another world :)
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Lozzzz
3/4 is the ID of the pipe. The OD is just over an inch. Post the make and model of the pump for the pumpophiles to advise on pipe sizes but at 300LPM I would have thought 1 1/4 would be a better size than 3/4 but have a look at valve sizes available before choosing. You could make the mixing line a bigger size with the drain etc at 3/4.
James is the authority on Venturi and eductor design for specific pump rates, though with that flow rate an eductor would be overkill.
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James is the authority on Venturi and eductor design for specific pump rates, though with that flow rate an eductor would be overkill.
Overkill? Never, you can't have too much agitation, I've built venturis and eductors for pumps upto 1000ltr/min at 3bar, mind you they were mixing between 2,500 and 10,000ltr batches.
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Having read the first eight pages of your car build, and having my mind thoroughly melted, I can safely say you will have no problem building a bio processor.
I'll read the rest when I recover........
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Hello and welcome!
That is a cracking motor you have there, you will have no trouble building anything bio related.
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I'm going to keep an eye out for the Green van Rotary
Dick, Agreed, I might have to go bigger then. I've kept your advice in mind, that after a while the exciting edge will be lost a bit so it would be beneficial to make the thing as big as possible hence the silly pump.
The pump is a Lowara CEA210/4/A-V As seen here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141226697341?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
The data sheet can be seen here:
http://www.lowara.com/518F61A1-8469-4935-A8EA-95CB7C59C924/FinalDownload/DownloadId-B7364E281089C6EE7C2E46D69C30A43A/518F61A1-8469-4935-A8EA-95CB7C59C924/lowdata/doc/EN/ceaca-td-en.pdf
I'm looking forward to having a go at making the venturi. I'm hoping this will be do-able on the lathe from an aluminium bar.
James, its a relief to hear you say that, I was worried the pump might be to big for a 160l (ish) reactor.
Thanks for your comments Greasemonkey and Kamaangir. Glad you're enjoying the read :)
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K.H here runs a big pump not sure on size but his pipe work is 2 inch I believe... quite a machine...
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Lozzzz
Aluminium is a no no due to reaction with e meth unless you use it for the former when casting the Venturi.
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Right, back to the drawing board on that one then :)
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Lozzzz
Aluminium is a no no due to reaction with e meth unless you use it for the former when casting the Venturi.
I looked into the reaction between methanol and aluminium. Although there is a reaction, it would appear that it's only with the oxidised layer ... so only a few molecules thick. Consensus (which included a PhD in chemistry) was that it would most likely take years to do any significant damage.
However, it will get seriously attacked by the catalyst. Whilst in my teens I tried degreasing a clutch with NaOH in an aluminium bucket ... the bucket lost, big time.
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Lozzzz
Aluminium is a no no due to reaction with e meth unless you use it for the former when casting the Venturi.
I looked into the reaction between methanol and aluminium. Although there is a reaction, it would appear that it's only with the oxidised layer ... so only a few molecules thick. Consensus (which included a PhD in chemistry) was that it would most likely take years to do any significant damage.
However, it will get seriously attacked by the catalyst. Whilst in my teens I tried degreasing a clutch with NaOH in an aluminium bucket ... the bucket lost, big time.
My bad should have taken the time to write methoxide!
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Ah, sorry, probably down to my poor interpretation.
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Welcome Lozzzzzz, you'll enjoy it here. A wealth of information, and humour. I'd advise against going to the BBB 2014 though. There appears to be mighty strange (and of questionable moral & legal standing) goings-on there.
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Welcome Lozzzzzz, you'll enjoy it here. A wealth of information, and humour. I'd advise against going to the BBB 2014 though. There appears to be mighty strange (and of questionable moral & legal standing) goings-on there.
Nothing strange at the BBB. A flowery dress and a quick slap of WVO round ya chops, and you'll fit right in.
Oh...........
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Welcome Lozzzz, just catchin up here and reading ya blog on ya project, I used to walk past a Schimiter garage every morning on me way to school, lovely motors, they also sold lotus too so always a delay on the way past with me droolin! nearly bought a GTE a few years back but it was only for the essex V6 in it,
As for aluminium definitely a no no, we've got a big Ali spud or rice pan but I used it when trying out water n meth n catalyst mixes, can't remember the name, anhydrous methoxide was it? anyways, I mixed the water and NaOH in our Ali pan, and it spewed out gasses with nasty fumes so I thrashed it down the sink rapid like, but the pan was well spotted all over a bit like a planishing hammer finish, or hammerite paint type look. :'(
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Nice work there with the scimitar - I'm very impressed. Building a reactor shouldn't pose you any problems at all! I hope you do post a build thread. I'd be interested to follow how you get on. Since you obviously have the skills to do a high quality build why don't you try and take the best tips from the forum and build something state of the art that pulls together all the best ideas that people have come up with to upgrade the basic GL design?
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Thanks folks, I'm glad you like the car, and its nice of you to suggest I should be able to get something together.
I'll do my best, but I've got the usual problem, I'm dying to get going with it, and as Dick says will probably want to add to it later and improve it when I have a better grasp in the chemistry going on inside. I've still got to decide on my method of drying the oil. My understanding of what is needed is only just behind where I am in terms of building it.
Its like lots of things in life when you understand it, its easy! :) I'd like to consider myself reasonably bright, and Dick has spent a good few hours explaining things to me, but my mind is still in a bit of tangle regarding the last half of the process. Thing is the clever folk have figured out lots of ways of doing it, which makes trying to understand it all the more difficult :)
Anyway all it needs is more time reading through the wiki and I'll get there.
Making a tank that seals should keep my busy for the foreseeable future.
I cut the bottom off the barrel this evening and removed the paint. I chose to make the cone well oversize so I would have a joint like this to weld into:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/Welding.png) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/Welding.png.html)
This way I can trim off the excess metal with the grinder later. I've done a bit of welding but I'm still really cr*p. I find a joint like this much easier than a butt joint.
I cut the bottom off the tank a couple of cm up from the bottom and removed the paint ready for welding:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140325_195220.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140325_195220.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140325_195323.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140325_195323.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140325_195345.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140325_195345.jpg.html)
I messed about trying to solder over the weld in the cone to test the theory of using to solder to seal up bad welding. I couldn't get it to work :(
When soldering a heater flange on is it just plumbers solder you use? I imagine I failed as I'm hoping the solder will just flow over the, but perhaps its needs a gap to creep into like the gap between the flange and the barrel, am I on the right lines?
Other question I thought of while removing paint for welding: Do I need to remove all the paint from inside the barrel? (please say no cos that will be a right pain in the arse!)
Is this too many photo? If this is a good level of detail perhaps you could put some of this onto a wiki page so I can see how you do it and I'll build on it from there?
More to come
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bio will strip the paint when you get going
and its funny you remind me of someone with the pictures :) bit of ms paint work
and plenty pics is good
I did the flange on the barrel on the wiki I cleaned and fluxed and soldered both bits before placing together then heat again to lock both sides of solder...
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Its my advanced CAD package :)
Will that paint stripping action be a problem, will the car burn it ok? or the filter catch it?
Forgot to ask is the BBB some kind of WVO fueled party?
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filter will grab bits...
bio buddies bash is a weekend we all go on and camp in chugs field and party, bring stuff to view mess about with allsorts of veg related stuff and its like swap arama with bits people bring to sell swap etc. nigeb sorts chemicals out, great weekend you should go meet up with peeps talk bio stuff and drink beers, cook on the open fire and watch demos etc...
forgot we have the big card game winner takes all, entry fee 20 ltrs good runny oil
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filter will grab bits...
bio buddies bash is a weekend we all go on and camp in chugs field and party, bring stuff to view mess about with allsorts of veg related stuff and its like swap arama with bits people bring to sell swap etc. nigeb sorts chemicals out, great weekend you should go meet up with peeps talk bio stuff and drink beers, cook on the open fire and watch demos etc...
forgot we have the big card game winner takes all, entry fee 20 ltrs good runny oil
And wear dresses, you forgot that bit.
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filter will grab bits...
bio buddies bash is a weekend we all go on and camp in chugs field and party, bring stuff to view mess about with allsorts of veg related stuff and its like swap arama with bits people bring to sell swap etc. nigeb sorts chemicals out, great weekend you should go meet up with peeps talk bio stuff and drink beers, cook on the open fire and watch demos etc...
forgot we have the big card game winner takes all, entry fee 20 ltrs good runny oil
And wear dresses, you forgot that bit.
I don't know what scares me the most?? looking at 2 blokes dressed in flowery frock with wigs or the fact you liked it?????
:o
8)
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It's now standard dress code, excuse the pun.
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I might not be very good at welding, but I've done a lot of it. Trying to weld a sealed joint is a whole different ball game. The first cone I made leaked like a sieve, and was unrecoverable.
Second one didn't look a work of art, but was perfect.
New 0.8mm sheet, with new 0.6mm mig wire. New tip and shroud.
20mm overlap onto the drum. The cone has to fit perfectly to the drum, the slightest gap will cock it up.
The metal needs to be spotless clean, no rust,no paint. (don't worry about the inside, but you'll be able to see the penetration better if there is no paint on it.
The seal comes from the weld fusing the cone and the drum together, not from filling in the edge of the cone against the drum.
Three quarters of the width of the weld will be on the cone, the last quarter just overlapping the edge, onto the drum. Inside, the weld just wants to be slightly penetrating the surface of the drum, a slight black line, and a little ripple. The power and wire speed need to be perfect.
I did about 10 foot of practise weld first, with the same steel, to set the mig up and get everything right.
If it is undercutting, it will leak, if it is to proud, it will not penetrate and fuse the two pieces.
Grind back the weld every time you stop, so your starting on clean steel. Grind out tacks, don't weld over them.
It was a clown of a job, and took me all day. I must say, my view of what a strong weld is, has changed considerably after doing it.
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I've done my share of cocking it up too :) I welded up a swirl pot and it never sealed, I ended up buying one.
I'll take that on board, I hadn't thought of using 0.6mm wire, I bet that helps, and a new tip would be a good idea, mine really needs changing. Thing is I haven't got any 0.6mm wire and that mean waiting :( I'm not good at waiting, I wanted to do it tomorrow. Actually there are a few jobs I can do on the scimitar tomorrow. I'll, look into 0.6mm now
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Welding a sealed joint with MIG is tricky. It's very easy to get inclusions on the start - the best technique is to simply not stop! Welding around a drum I tend to do by rolling it slowly as I'm welding. You can get the whole way around without stopping then.
Easier to get a perfect weld with TIG - but on a drum your fabrication must be 100%. Any much of a gap and you'll struggle to fill it.
Arc is best for welding a sealed joint, but then it's troublesome on thin sheet.
My personal combination for drum welding, MIG to start and then if it leaks, I go over it with the TIG.
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Its nice to have that choice ;D
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Yes it is. 8)
You can go over a mig weld again with the wire speed turned right down. It's called 'dip and spray' and will leave big globular puddles of weld. It can look great, but there's a risk of burning through as not enough material is introduced to reduce the amount of heat.
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I've started a new wiki page here ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Processor_build_step_by_step
It's populated with text which can be overwritten or added to as you go.
It is possible to link to external photos, but the page is better optimised if photos are up loaded to the wiki. To do this go to the "upload file" link in the toolbox menu on the left-hand side of each page and follow the steps.
Once they are uploaded to the wiki you can stick them on the page by using the following simple code ...
[[File:File.jpg]] to use the full version of the file
[[File:File.png| 200px|thumb|left|alt text]] to use a 200 pixel wide rendition in a box in the left margin with 'alt text' as description
[[Media:File.ogg]] for directly linking to the file without displaying the file
Or a gallery ...
<gallery caption="title" widths="300px" heights="300px" perrow="2" align="left">
File:file name 1.jpg|Text under pic here.
File:file name 1.jpg|Text under pic here.
</gallery>
Have a bash, you can't screw things up as the pages can always be rolled back to a previous version. Any problems, post on here and we'll be pleased to help or edit the page.
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Welding a cone to a drum.
It is far easier to weld a lap joint than try to lay a fillet considering the gauge of the drum.
You will need 0.6mm wire and a proper shield gas that is suitable for shallow penatration, Co2 isn't really good enough.
Fit the cone on the drum and tack the lap joint every 6 inch, close down any gaps between the cone and drum wall, grind flush all tacks.
Lay the drum on its side and weld in a downward direction between the 10 and 20 past position. You'll have to get the weld speed, amps and wire feed just right so a bit of practice will be needed before you weld in anger.
Grind back flush the last 15-20mm of each section of weld and start the next section on top of it, when you get to the last run of weld grind both ends flush so you start and finish over the existing welds.
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Welding a cone to a drum.
It is far easier to weld a lap joint than try to lay a fillet considering the gauge of the drum.
You will need 0.6mm wire and a proper shield gas that is suitable for shallow penatration, Co2 isn't really good enough.
Fit the cone on the drum and tack the lap joint every 6 inch, close down any gaps between the cone and drum wall, grind flush all tacks.
Lay the drum on its side and weld in a downward direction between the 10 and 20 past position. You'll have to get the weld speed, amps and wire feed just right so a bit of practice will be needed before you weld in anger.
Grind back flush the last 15-20mm of each section of weld and start the next section on top of it, when you get to the last run of weld grind both ends flush so you start and over the existing welds.
Colud be a good addition to the wiki page.
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Feel free to use it Julian, I ain't smart enough (can't be arsed to learn) to work the wiki pages.
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It's really up to loz5 to slot it in where he sees fit.
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Thanks Julian, I'll get on it at some point this weekend. I'll try and condense down the advice given and put it in the wiki.
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Thanks Julian, I'll get on it at some point this weekend. I'll try and condense down the advice given and put it in the wiki.
Just to get you started, I've nicked a photo from your photobucket pages uploaded and stuck it on the page ... it's probably a bit easier to start that way.
I've put up a straight photo with title, a gallery, pasted in Jim's text and called the first headding "Processor tank". See how that automatically appears in the TOC.
Have a play with the code. You can change all sorts of things ... photo widths, numbers in a row in the gallery, justification etc, etc.
Don't worry too much how it looks during construction, it won't be indexed on the main page until you're ready.
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its gone very quiet on this thread I feel the start of a build coming on :)
yehaaaaaaaaaa
8)
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A mini update (then some excuses)
The pump arrived, and was a little disappointing to start with. Lots of bimetallic corrosion meant all the bolts were not going to move, so I snapped them all off and have a great plan to get round it, the motor was not turning either (by hand) but after a little dismantling and freeing it looks like its rescue-able. More on this to come. I've been very busy getting the Scimitar ready for the road again, and have a horrendously busy week approaching so unfortunately that's all I've managed to get done. The busy week ahead could be rather exciting too :) I'll keep you posted.
This and the wiki page will become very busy soon, but I'm not going to have any time over this week, sorry for the non start.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140328_172918.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140328_172918.jpg.html)
More to come (just not for a little while :( )
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Loz, don't worry about getting things done quickly, take your time and get it right first time.
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Loz, don't worry about getting things done quickly, take your time and get it right first time.
I build extensions on that basis.
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Loz, don't worry about getting things done quickly, take your time and get it right first time.
I build extensions on that basis.
I didn't know you had extensions, I thought it was a wig.
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Loz, don't worry about getting things done quickly, take your time and get it right first time.
I build extensions on that basis.
I didn't know you had extensions, I thought it was a wig.
Looks like Julian's getting ready for the BBB dress code winner of the year award.
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Hi again folks,
Its been a while, I worked on the Scimitar for a while, then the reason to do so fell through, no matter, it'll be on the road sooner :)
And now, I've been working on the pump. The 0.6mm wire is on its way and I'll do my best with the cone soon.
First I took it apart and freed it up. The got it running from the 3 phase converter.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140403_184024.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140403_184024.jpg.html)
The made it quite apparent that the bearing was history, so I took it apart further and ordered a bearing and a seal kit.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140403_204946.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140403_204946.jpg.html)
This morning, I got that fitted and ran the motor again. It runs really smoothly now.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140406_073010.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140406_073010.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140406_082819.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140406_082819.jpg.html)
This is about as far as I got this morning but the misses is going away for a bit so there will plenty going on :) I'll hopfully have the pump back together before long and start doing some practice welding with the 0.6mm wire. I've been ordering parts from BES and the Bay, can't wait :)
The pump is a CEA210/4/A-V (300lpm), it cost £45, the bearing was £4.95, and the seal kit £25. If all goes well that should be a bargain!
More to come.
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Ah the familiar innards of pump.
I made the mistake of using really budget bearings, which lasted about 4 hours. A slightly more expensive set are still going, however :)
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Oooo, I hope I got a goodie then, I think it was second most expensive, made by FAG, I've heard of them so fingers crossed :)
Could you help folks, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm doing here, just an idiot check before ordering really.
I'm fitting a chunky pump but this should have no effect on the diameter of the vent tubing right, 15mm vent is still fine right?!?!
The only thing that should effect the vent diameter is if I fit a load of heating elements correct??!!??
Thanks folks
P.S.
effect/affect, I don't really know :)
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I wouldn't have though it would be a problem. Your taking out the bottom, what your putting in the top.
Unless someone knows different......
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Sounds like you have the gist of things ... the only times there's any flow in or out of the vent (under normal operation) is heating and cooling, loading and unloading including the addition of methoxide and wash water, and when you vaporise water or methanol without the condenser running.
I doubt any of those, even loading with a large pump, would warrant a larger vent, but if you are at all concerned, err on the side of caution, it can do no harm.
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I think a 15mm should be fine but it is much easier to put in a 22 at the start than wish you had fitted one and mod it later.
Keep up the good work and don't forget to get the lean to finished. Btw on the lean to I would make the roof over the processor easy to remove as the top of the processor will be close to it and you don't want to be lowering the processor if you want to modify inside it for any reason. ( I speak from experience will tell you sometime)
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15mm is fine for a vent, the main thing is to use solid pipe, something that can't collapse and form a seal as if this happens the tank will implode when you pump your finished fuel out.
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I quite like the idea of an open topped sight tube as an additional safety measure, as well as a convenient means of returning samples etc.
We just need to find a material that will stand the duty for extended periods.
For my part, Frankenpump now sucks all the liquid out of my sight tube, so I have to keep the valve closed.
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I see your point Dick, I have tried to "go big or go home" on everything so far, it would make sense to do the same on the vent. It would be nice to fit more than one heater at some point but that really is something for the future as I don't really have a thick enough cable to run a 3kW heater and a 2kW pump as it is. If I do upgrade to two heaters at some point a 22m vent might be a sensible thing to have.
On the subject of solid tubing... really :( that's a long way to go with solid tubing. What if it's decent thick walled fuel hose or something, nylon lined, would that not be ok to run the vent up to the roof???
I'm still waiting for a solution to present itself regarding the lean-to, B&Q would like about £50 for the right amount of seriously flimsy plastic sheets. That just feels like I'm being bent over :( I've still got time for this, I'll have to ask around some local farmers or something.
I think I'll go with the sight tube too, but like you say, its finding the right material???
Frankenpump :) :) :)
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Might I suggest that braided tube for a vent line is just fine. No danger of collapse or kinkage unless it is poorly fitted and installed.
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I will have a look for sight tube, I think I have some in central stores. I certainly have some Perspex that some have used but it is brittle, will let you know.
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Might I suggest that braided tube for a vent line is just fine. No danger of collapse or kinkage unless it is poorly fitted and installed.
Might I suggest not. Wasn't there a case of someone storing a ladder against a braided vent pipe which in time over the summer months collapsed.
Far better to be safe than sorry.
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Right you are then, I'll look into the options when I get that far along, but I certainly won't be using anything flimsy.
Thanks Dick that would be great. Do you fit a perspex tube into a olive/compression fitting?? (gently)
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braided is ok for sight tube but not for vent. For the gl i'm building now am thinking of using polypipe
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Right you are then, I'll look into the options when I get that far along, but I certainly won't be using anything flimsy.
Thanks Dick that would be great. Do you fit a perspex tube into a olive/compression fitting?? (gently)
Acrylic will crack and disintergrate eventually. I've used it for several years, but have gone back to PVC again.
If you are going to use it, don't use olives. The edges of the olive bite in and create an annular weak spot which promotes the tube snapping (ask me how I know!)
Best bet for fixing it is to use a couple of "O" rings in place of the olive, all same this ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Tips_and_wrinkles_1#.E2.80.99O.E2.80.99_rings_used_on_Acrylic_sight_glass
It was a while ago that I bought them, but you used to find 15 and 20mm OD acrylic on ebay. The 15mm had quite a thick wall, but my preference was for the 20mm ... better view of the contents. You can get 20mm compression fittings, sold for use with that blue PE water pipe of the same size. I think BES do them.
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Thanks Dick that would be great. Do you fit a perspex tube into a olive/compression fitting?? (gently)
I have some 10mm translucent tube as well if you want that. If I was using Perspex it would isolate it from the fitting with some flexible silicone tube then any vibration would not be transmitted. (Yes I have the silicone tube as well) As the site tube is usually fitted with a valve most of the time it is isolated so if a leak does occur not much oil is lost.
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Thanks, I thought I'd seen a picture of a sight tube somewhere on the wiki.
Dick, it would be great to come over and look at the options at some point? Do you like real ales??
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Anyone used this before.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BLACK-CORRUGATED-FLEXIBLE-HOSE-FISH-GARDEN-POND-FILTER-PUMP-MARINE-FLEXI-PIPE-/171142284167?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Garden_Plants_Bird_Bath_Feeder_CV&var=&hash=item27d8e00387
I've used it before for something in the garage (can't remember now) and its very strong (won't crush). Is it resistant to the chemicals? Frustratingly I can't seem to find what material it is made from.
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You might be better with this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wire-Reinforced-Vacuum-Suction-Delivery-Hose-Steel-Spiral-Helix-10M-Coil-/271276783271?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Supply_Material_Handling_ET&var=&hash=item3f295b36a7
Depending on length you need I might have some in central stores. Have a look when you come over. (Nb re real ales nephew is a brewer so have lots of real ales but nice cider goes down well!)
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I just got some 10mm opaque I can give you free, not clear like glass but would see level
nylon tube
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Thanks for the kind offer, I'll go see Dick's rig again and talk through the options and my well take you up on that.
That tube looks good Dick. Is that the stuff you're using all over your rig?
I got lots of cool stuff in the post :) I'll be attempting to make a quadruple 1m long condenser, I'll be (attempting) to put in two header flanges (go bog or go home right :) ) but as it stands don't have a good enough supply to the garage so I've just got a blanking plate for one of the flanges. The nipples and valves have arrived (well the first lot). It's all 1.25" so a bit pricey. I've been telling Dick all about how this has to be done on a tight budget....... well that didn't happen, as with everything I do, I read about it lots and end up trying to get the biggest or best I can :) Its up to £300 at the moment, (barrels for suppliers, lean-to stuff, everything) and I'll be doing my best to stick to a £500 budget.
The welding gear for the cone
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140409_190500.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140409_190500.jpg.html)
Here is all the other stuff lines up :)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140409_190512.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140409_190512.jpg.html)
Yorkshire fitting for the condenser
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140409_190518.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140409_190518.jpg.html)
Flanges and stuff
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140409_190530.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140409_190530.jpg.html)
Finished pump and some valves (primarly to seal off the bottom of the cone so I can fill it with water to test it)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140409_190537.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140409_190537.jpg.html)
I had the pump finished quite early last night and was all set to try my hand at 0.6mm welding, then this happened.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140409_195330.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140409_195330.jpg.html)
wanted to get the spare gearbox sealed up again so the grinding dust didn't contaminate it. I'd got the box partly open, but could fully open it up and couldn't put it back together. I tried one more time ,before giving up and adding it to the scrap pile and it opened up :) So I spent the rest of the evening checking it and putting it back together (that was..... still is, a struggle!). So if I can get the last circlip on tonight I can start the cone welding tonight.
The misses is away for four days, and you know the saying..... While the cats the away, the mice will make bio gear :)
More to come!
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Yes I advise using solid tube on a processor then use the rienforced plastic myself!
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You sound like a teacher..... Do as I say not as I do :) :)
The engineer in me says that I shouldn't have all this gear solidly mounted together. The pump should be isolated from other item by some soft piping for vibration and longevity reasons. I understand the chemistry adds a complications though.
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The pump should not be vibrating enough to cause an issue. If it is its not mounted solidly enough. Any way you have what looks to be a quality pump, not a cheapanise copy, which would vibrate due to poor construction. ;D
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That ribbed black plastic stuff cracks over time, I've used it before for WVO pumping and it required replacement every 6 months. The clear stuff with wound reinforcing spiral is good though (for cold WVO).
Hot bio I've used grey speedfit pipe (with brass compression fittings and inserts), it's surprisingly tough stuff, but does go softer with temperature. It's best plumbed in metal but as a temporary measure speedfit is an option - at your own risk, of course!
My discharge pipe is speedfit and that is many many years old, regularly takes 90C bio and is still going... it came with some processor parts where the guy had been using it in the main pumped loop for a year - and demething with it like that.
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Hmmmmmmm...... I'd like to do a proper job of it. I might try cutting some tread on the lathe, I've not done it before but it means I could make any length instead of ordering bits. I can't do a whole loop in BSP though there must be a break from it as you can't tighten the last fitting :)
I made some serious progress last night and today.
Got the cone welded on (thanks for the 0.6mm advice, its much more..... "delicate" and argon is much nicer than CO2). First I welded on the nipple for the valve as I could test everything by filling up with water. You can have a good laugh at this welding, it went baaaaaadly!!!!
And I got angry with it and piles on more weld and eventually I was left with a smooth weld (lots of it) but I couldn't believe my eyes when it worked, no leaks :) :)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140411_190745.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140411_190745.jpg.html)
I then put the whole thing in the vice
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140411_194614.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140411_194614.jpg.html)
Placed the barrel on top with a couple of differentials to weigh it down (reduce the gap)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140411_194551.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140411_194551.jpg.html)
I cut most of the excess material away and tack welded it in place.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140411_194606.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140411_194606.jpg.html)
Then took it down and put it on the bench and hammered the edge flush against the barrel as I went
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140411_204224.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140411_204224.jpg.html)
This mostly went really well, again I couldn't believe how well it worked really :) I tested it this morning and there were 3 leaks.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140411_210357.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140411_210357.jpg.html)
All patched up and painted (silver being the only paint I had)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140412_081852.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140412_081852.jpg.html)
Then it was on to the condenser. I used the die grinder for the fittings
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140412_090635.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140412_090635.jpg.html)
Insulation tape to hold a bolt in place as a jig for the length, and the spanner meant the vice always closed to the right gap.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140412_111603.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140412_111603.jpg.html)
I enlisted the help of my dad who has done lots before. I haven't done any pipe soldering before, Its quite fun :)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140412_153210.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140412_153210.jpg.html)
It doesn't sit flat on the floor, I seem to have made it with a bit of a twist included, I'm hoping the gas won't mind :) This is the shower pump I plan to use to circulate the cooling water, its a pump my folks had hanging around.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140412_182202.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140412_182202.jpg.html)
Then on to the heater flanges, I wanted two to speed things up when I can get a more substantial electricity supply.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140412_185813.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140412_185813.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140412_185826.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140412_185826.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140412_192119.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140412_192119.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140412_185934.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140412_185934.jpg.html)
And the second flange higher up.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140412_200153.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140412_200153.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140412_200532.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140412_200532.jpg.html)
I'm really pleased with the result. I tested the tank again with water. The top one seemed fine but the bottom was leaking, I think is down to the fact that the heater was in hand tight only. I need a spanner really. This is all the solder I had left :) :) Lucky! well not if it turns out the bottom flange is leaking :)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140412_200448.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140412_200448.jpg.html)
I've sort of exhausted all my options for a bit, need to visit the Wiki again and do some learning, then some ordering then make the venturi, a stand for it all and begin to put some bits together.
Can I say a hearty thank you to you all for the wealth of information that I've got access too. I know I've said this a lot, but I'm planning to do the tank building wiki tomorrow afternoon/evening and give something back. Thanks a lot folks.
Dick, is tomorrow afternoon any good to come round and loot as some hose options? I can come in the week if you'd prefer??
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On another note, I met a chap in Bromyard today (while buying pipe bits) who has made lots of bio. We got chatting and he assured me that I should be bubbling the bio afterwards to remove any trace of meth. I thought that's what the condenser did?? Does the condenser and GL processor have a limit beyond which it cannot remove any more?? Or perhaps he wasn't using the GL type at all. I should have asked more questions.
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Very tidy.
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On another note, I met a chap in Bromyard today (while buying pipe bits) who has made lots of bio. We got chatting and he assured me that I should be bubbling the bio afterwards to remove any trace of meth. I thought that's what the condenser did?? Does the condenser and GL processor have a limit beyond which it cannot remove any more?? Or perhaps he wasn't using the GL type at all. I should have asked more questions.
Hmmm, I can see you're not going to fit in here at all well. Workman ship way too good and bench far too tidy. I've got a good run of bench space, and the last time I saw the tops clear was just after I built them!
The condenser will eventually remove the methanol, but it's a long and consequently costly process. You have to go way above the boiling point. It's usually more economical to recover the bulk of the methanol then wash or bubble out the balance.
Also when using NaOH or ASM, if you remove every last drop of methanol, the glycerin becomes vicious and more difficult to drain, especially if it cools for any reason.
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Additional thought ... while it's open, carefully measure the to the top of each heater and put a run of weld or a mark on the tank and transfer that to the sight tube before you insulate.
It will come in handy at some point in the future.
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Thanks Julian :)
Good plan with the heaters, I'll measure that, particularly the cone mounted one as you can't tell where is sits now, let alone with insulation.
Hmmm, Dick might read this and shake his head, I'm sure he's probably already told me about the de-mething options. :)
I've head or read so many different ways of doing it, its hard to figure out whats what.
Do you all "bubble" or is the "inverted spoon while boiling it out" a sufficient alternative?
What about the pressure drop evaporator, is that instead of bubbling?
Or letting air into the venturi during the de-meth stage, is that an alternative to bubbling?
I like the idea of trying to combine the "air in through venturi "and "spoon fountain" do help with the distillation. Would I still need to bubble after this??
Sorry for all the questions. Perhaps I should go over the wiki again.
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I tend to dry oil with the venturi, demeth with the venturi and also air bubble for 24h from hot just to drive off any trace Methanol left.
That said any form of spraying or diffusing will also help. Your call :)
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Should be about this pm but, as always, give me a ring first. We can discuss bumbling ect then. I same you will be fitting the safety stop so that the heaters can only be switched on when oil is over the heaters? Remind me to have a look for a working pressure switch.
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My process in detail is as follows ...
Poor quality oil/whites go into an open top tank through a mesh for melting, rough drying and separating.
Good oil and liquid oil from the above, go into a settling/storage tank through a filter.
Oil is then dried the in the processor with the venturi and condenser.
2 stage conversion process.
7% wash followed by an acid pump wash and water pump wash and then dried in the processor with the venturi and condenser.
Transfer to settling tank and bubble overnight. Leave to settle.
Transfer to a second settling tank via a dry wash tower. Leave to settle.
Transfer to outside bulk storage and then into the car via a 1µ filter.
I think your best bet is to build a system that will do all known functions and then find which process best suits you.
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Right you are then, I'm trying to run before I can walk.
I've been thinking about mounting it all and I think I've had a cracking idea. I don't want it in the lean to out the back for security reasons especially with all the copper in it, but I know I should for safety reasons. I'll only need it outside for a day or two once a month, so.......
I'm going to buy a small trailer, and mount it all on there, containment and all. We have just the thing (although I'll have to buy another one as I'm sure dad doesn't want me ruining this one) but we often wheel the thing from in the garage to where the lean to is, be hand with no problems.
Best of both worlds. Stored more securely in the garage, where it can be worked on, then wheeled around the back, connected to the vent and used there when needed. Win Win!!!! I think the inlaws even have one they dont want :)
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If your going to mount it on a trailer, then it would probably be worth earthing the body of the processor. It's probably a good thing to do anyway, but if it's sat on the floor, at least any static build up has a route out. On a trailer, it hasn't, and could potentially cause a spark.
Maybe just take an earth from the drum, into the earthlead, but I'm not sure about that. I put a ground spike in and took a wire to it from a clamp on one of the pipes.
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Another thing to consider if mounting on a trailer is stability, you don't want around 300kg wobbling about with a high center of gravity.
Also the height of the whole will be increased adding to the problem.
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Yeah, it'll certainly need some legs to drop down while in use, a vent connection, and the earths is a great idea.
Been to see Dick, lots of ideas and parts from my trip :) :) I'm excited to get going with it. Need a trailer now though.
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I toyed with the idea of making my processor mobile by building it to a size that would fit on a pallet, but in the end it seemed easier to put a door on the shed! As for demething, if nobody else has already told you this, it makes a big difference to put a heat exchanger before the condensor. The hot side of the heat exchanger is the vapour pipe on its way to the condensor and the cold side is the air return pipe from the bottom of the condensor to the Venturi. I was skeptical about the benefit of heating the air going into the Venturi because I thought that the oil flow was so hot anyway that hot or cold air was neither here nor there, but on the advice of others on the forum I added it anyway and I reckon it doubled the efficiency of my demething. That condensor you've built is way over specified for 3kw, and none the worse for that!
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Go big or go home :) :)
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Julian,
I can't get the thumbnail thingy to work on the wiki page, I'm sure its something I'm doing wrong, any chance you could have a look at how I've put it on the page?
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You had the file extension as png when it was a jpg.
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I wondered if png was the problem, I tried jpg as all the other links you showed me were jpg, but I still couldn't get it to work.
Thanks for fixing it.
loz5 :)
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The wiki can use several different file types, what you call up on the page just has to match what you've uploaded.
If there's any obscure type you want to use, give Tony a shout and he can magically modify things.
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I see, I'm sticking with simple for now.
I've done about half of it I think,
I'll add a "welding considerations" somewhere and then another section on attaching the cone to the prepared barrel. I'm getting the hang of it now.
I'll do a bit more later.
Thanks for the help
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I see, I'm sticking with simple for now.
I've done about half of it I think,
I'll add a "welding considerations" somewhere and then another section on attaching the cone to the prepared barrel. I'm getting the hang of it now.
I'll do a bit more later.
Thanks for the help
Looking good ... you're a natural!
Just to keep a uniformity between pages, can the top photo justify right, keeping the TOC on the left?
Any problems or bits behaving as they shouldn't, give us a shout.
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got link
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found it
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I think its done. Shall I go ahead and delete the "nowiki" bits?
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I would like to add another couple of photos of the finished tank but i've to take some first, i'll hopefully take those on thrusday.
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found it
If you go to the wiki and click "Recent changes" you can see all the pages that have been altered in the last week or so.
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Page is looking more and more impressive ... good work.
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Really good write up - well done :)
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Thanks folks :) :) Glad you like it.
Please feel free to alter anything, particularly with regard to the welding tips, I've not got much experience with the thin stuff.
Got lots done today, although having said that it was mainly thinking...
I picked up a trailer for £40 and stripped the rotton wood out of it (so all the wood then).
It occurred to me that this isn't going to fit under the garage door though, so I thought and thought and thought, then this idea came to me.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140417_115846.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140417_115846.jpg.html)
A bit of cutting and welding later, and I got this far. Like I said it was a thinking day. I think I would have made more ground if I had had this idea before starting. Anyway I'm pleased with the progress. I've got a small shopping list of bit to get to complete the bottom end of the processor.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140417_160213.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140417_160213.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140417_160238.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140417_160238.jpg.html)
I hope I'm right in thinking, the glyc drain valve doesn't need to be anywhere near as massive as the valve to the pump. So this should save a bit of money.
More to come.
Oh and the Wiki page should be finished in a matter of minutes.
Am I good to delete the nowiki bit?????
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I did it ::)
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No problem deleting that lot ... I don't think you need too much prompting now.
May I say what a pleasure it is to see a pile of crap in the corner of your garage ... it restores ones faith in human nature!
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It's still way too tidy though.
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Its far to untidy for my liking! But then it's my folks garage, not mine. Its pretty tidy around the Scimitar though :)
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Been away a while sunning myself. :) Had a couple of hours on it this afternoon and already I'm back to "work"
Inspection at work next week :( :(
I spent most of my time digging out an old bed frame for its angle section. I think I'm through the majority of the "staring at it and thinking" stage and finally have a plan to move forward...... then the inspectors called so it'll be on the back burner again for a bit.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140426_145806.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140426_145806.jpg.html)
More to come
(Shouldn't it be loz6 rather than loz5 ???)
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(Shouldn't it be loz6 rather than loz5 ???)
To be perfectly honest I'm not sure, sums has never been my strong point ... the logic I used was that the first z counted as part of the string.
I'm on a par with earth worms when numbers get bigger than 10, but I'm sure someone higher up the evolutionary ladder will be along to correct me.
I just thought it was rather amusing and hoped no one would be that diligent as to check!
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(Shouldn't it be loz6 rather than loz5 ???)
To be perfectly honest I'm not sure, sums has never been my strong point ... the logic I used was that the first z counted as part of the string.
I'm on a par with earth worms when numbers get bigger than 10, but I'm sure someone higher up the evolutionary ladder will be along to correct me.
I just thought it was rather amusing and hoped no one would be that diligent as to check!
and im sat wondering how do you get that 5 or 6 up the top of the font :)
I wonder divide by pie, steak and kidney being my favourite ;)
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(Shouldn't it be loz6 rather than loz5 ???)
To be perfectly honest I'm not sure, sums has never been my strong point ... the logic I used was that the first z counted as part of the string.
I'm on a par with earth worms when numbers get bigger than 10, but I'm sure someone higher up the evolutionary ladder will be along to correct me.
I just thought it was rather amusing and hoped no one would be that diligent as to check!
and im sat wondering how do you get that 5 or 6 up the top of the font :)
I wonder divide by pie, steak and kidney being my favourite ;)
It means to the power of ... same as squared or cubed. I'm just not smart enough to know if it's to the power of 5 or 6.
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RM1
8)
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RM1
8)
There could only ever be one!
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RM1
8)
There could only ever be one!
highlander
:)
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Hi all,
Its been a while. I've been on holiday and buying a car :) and just generally not getting much done on the processor :(
But yesterday I finished reinforcing the tank mount:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140510_061205.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140510_061205.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140510_061350.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140510_061350.jpg.html)
And started making the bracket to hold the pump:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140510_070254.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140510_070254.jpg.html)
And got to a position where I was able to test the pump:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140511_083846.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140511_083846.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140511_083836.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140511_083836.jpg.html)
And...... The pump leaks :( :( :( :(
I've emailed the seal guy and told him how I assembled it. He seems to think there was nothing wrong with the way I did it. So I took it to bits again and cleaned the bits, checked the important faces of the rotary seal and reassembled (spotlessly clean).... Still leaking.
Next I'll try just leaving it running as it might have to "bed in", Seal kit man used to work a pump place and said occasionally they had to bed in for a bit.
More to come
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I don't want to be picky but you'll be putting the best part of 450lbs on to a VERYsmall surface area.
As your cone and hole are not truly round you've reduced the contact are even further, any vibration, and there will be some, could cause the edge of the support chewing through the cone.
Whilst I'm at it you'd be best advised to get rid of the plastic pipe, when it fails you're gonna end up with a lot of hot oil/bio to deal with.
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Agreed on those points. The plumbing is a temporary job simply to test the pump, it will look very different before oil goes in. The support for the tank will be different too. I plan to add something to spread the load. The point of contact you mention is far worse than you can imagine at the moment, but I haven't filled the tank very much for testing the pump.
On that note...... The pump is a monster!!! I drained over 50 litres in well under 10 seconds, I'm sure it was more like 5 seconds, there is a really strong reaction force too, you have to lean into it :) :) :)
Just got to stop the b***dy thing leaking.
Tried "Bedding it in" this afternoon, went from 2 drips a second to 1 a second. I'm in contact with the pump seal man. I really hope I can get this sorted.
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Welcome back.
Dick
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Big pumps are really good for speeding processing time (cue posts singing the praises of eductors!), but take care if you intend to pump wash!
Also, there's a bit on rejuvenating mechanical seals on the wiki ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Pump_-_Mono_MS
There's got to be a use for those wheels when in processing mode. It will be a great disappointment if you haven't come up with one by the end of the build ... hose reel perhaps?
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(cue posts singing the praises of eductors!)
Nah, can't be arsed, too busy with 3d printers now.
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From a purely personal point of view I'd employ another lever valve and connect it to the bottom nipple of the tank. If you have a problem with the pump or pipework the fluid in the processor needs to isolated. You're asking for trouble not having having one there
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Julian, I might well have a go at that seal rejuvenating, nothing to lose before giving in and getting another.
I'll put blades on the wheels and connect up a generator, harvest some wind energy :) :)
The plumbing is just temporary for testing the pump, there will be valves everywhere, including on the bottom of the tank.
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The plumbing is just temporary for testing the pump, there will be valves everywhere, including on the bottom of the tank.
My appologies there Loz. Just looked at the other pics and can see the valves. I was only looking at the one with the pump when I posted up. The other pics didn't register. Sorry!
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I did some work on the Scimitar yesterday, I want to tax, MOT and insure it next month. Didn't really get much done on the bio processor. I did however go to travis Perkins to see how much they would rip me of for a sheet of plyboard. I deemed it an accepetable rip off, but there was no way it was going to fit in my normal car. I thought about cutting it up but the cut up bits would have to be pretty small too.
So I thought about it, its only a mile away I'll walk it.
I walked to town, and walked back with it on my head :) 8ft x 4ft :)
About half way a van driver stopped and took pity. Then I did this: (now I'm marking :( or rather I'm avoiding marking)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140517_122058.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140517_122058.jpg.html)
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I got a bit more done on the processor last night. I got all the wood cut to size, a nice tight fit minimising the number of bolts needed to hold it all in.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140520_201103.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140520_201103.jpg.html)
I'm not sure if I mentioned the pump still leaked after fitting another new seal. But I then discovered the seal housing was cracked. Looks like thermal fatigue. With a new part costing £70 ish delivered I've asked a friend at work to TIG it up and he's done a great job.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140521_070826.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140521_070826.jpg.html)
I'll put it back together soon and test it again. Fingers crossed I can get the lining for the bunding, the pump stops leaking and I can get closer to finishing.
More to come
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Looking good.
I am sure you have thought of it but if not I would put some sort of removable strut on the wheel side of the system just to make sure it can't drop down on to the wheels when full.
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Good point Dick. The thought had crossed my mind, but so had the thought of using up against the wall at the back of the garage. I'll see how easy it is to maneuver the thing round when its done and add some struts depending on how it goes.
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Got some more done this afternoon. It might not look much but I was fairly pleased with progress. I just got on with it, instead of staring at it for ages which is my usual trick :)
I hammered an old Wok to make the flat bottom more round, then cut a hole in it and welded on a bit of tube. And there you have it, somewhere to pour the oil in :)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140523_164341.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140523_164341.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140523_181945.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140523_181945.jpg.html)
And with the gauze
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140523_170525.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140523_170525.jpg.html)
I also did something weird with the thermometer you gave me Dick. I hope you don't mind. I bought a tank fitting and soldered the thermometer housing into it. This required turning down the thread first. Then it soldered together nicely :)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140523_174502.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140523_174502.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140523_175137.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140523_175137.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140523_181350.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140523_181350.jpg.html)
On that note, I thought I'd hold off on drilling the tank until I'd confirmed that it can go anywhere right??? as long as its not too near the heater and its well below the oil level.
I've been looking at the solid state relays too. I seem to be able to get some that use have a 12v DC input and some have have higher voltage, and some are AC up to mains voltage. What voltage is the switch you gave me meant to operate at, and is it AC or DC or does it not matter?
Thanks
More to come
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Make sure you change that tank connector seal for one made of viton.
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Temp sensor mod looks good. As you will be mixing the oil position does not matter but, as you say, keep it away from the heater. About half way up the oil does it for me.
That looks like a spatter guard on top of the wok? I think you need something that sits in the wok as you will find it will block and fill up with oil, on the spatter guard it will just run off the sides. ( does SWMBO know you have the wok?)
By switch I assume you mean the pressure switch? If so I think it is designed for mains so you can put any voltage on it, up to 240, but it is only low current, don't put 13A on it AC or low volt DC is fine. If you are beginning to think about your control system don't forget the count down timer to switch everything off, you will be glad you included it one day!
Keep at it. When do you get the toyota back?
Tank seal can be hdpe if you haven't got any Viton, bio attacks rubber so as Nigel implies it will leak.
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I asked what material the tank connector seal was made from and they didn't know. I thought I might have to change it.
It is a spatter guard Dick, is it too fine then?
I'll get the solid state relay jobby in about a weeks time and I intend to get the timer too, I agree that's a vital safety feature.
Regarding the tank connector seal, you mentioned you cut HDPE out of cartons? Would an old engine oil carton be thick enough material?
Mr Two is with the bodywork doctor for a while. The garage owner is a friend and is doing the repairs very cheaply, but it can take a long time, I would hope it will be ready in about a month. I can't wait to see it, he works magic!!!!!!
A further update on progress....
I tested the pump again yesterday, while I was filling it up there was not a drop, then I switched it on, and there was a good dribble but it seemed to stop leaking again straight away. I think this was the seal finding its position. Hopefully it stays not leaking now :)
I've also got round to picking up a lorry curtain for making the processor bunding an covering the lean-to. Its massive!!!!
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140524_082844.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140524_082844.jpg.html)
There are a few holes here and there, but I know these can be repaired. It took a good two hours of practice to perfect the art of repairing the stuff though :(
Then I lined the trailer with it and forgot to take a photo.
More to come
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Yes too fine for a first filter. You will be processing thick oil at times and you want to be able to get it in the processor. The first filter is just to get bits out that would damage the pump. I use various kitchen strainers. The other problem you would encounter with it is that as you pour the oil on it it will clog and the oil will run off the sides, testing the bund! You need something with sides, some use a wire waste paper basket.
This is the type I find best.
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y521/dickjotec/53b003e6e6180d0a9b53b4bde9b73f43_zps03c7588d.jpg)
What did you use to weld the lorry tarp?
Regarding the seals I use bits cut from an IBC but a double thickness of oil container may be ok with a little gasket seal.
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Right you are i'll find something with a slightly less fine mesh. I'll have a look about for what i've got to make a seal with at some point.
I used some tarp to weld the tarp :) it was a pain, and the result looks messy but it appears to be working :)
I put and offcut under a thin sheet of steel and heated it until smoke came out from under the steel, then removed the flame and pushed down in it.
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I have done plastic welding with a heat gun. Try heating the tarp in a localised area with a fine, say 10mm nozzle on a hot air gun then rolling a wooden roller along the join line. You will probably need a piece of mdf below it the get sufficient pressure.
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A fresh MOT this morning and 6 months Tax :) :)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140531_083158.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140531_083158.jpg.html)
I got the lining finished:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140531_083542.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140531_083542.jpg.html)#
And the the tank insulated and mounted:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140531_144813.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140531_144813.jpg.html)
I feel like I made very little progress this morning, but it should look a lot more complete with another hours work I think, certainly the bottom end anyway.
More to come
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Like the temp gauge, real quailty there!
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Look, look ... I spy an untidy sofa.
PVC isn't bio proof, it tends to sweat. For that duty though, it should hold up OK.
Looking good, keep up the good work.
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Thanks Dick, it's a lovely gauge, given to me by a local bio expert :)
hmmm, the sofa.... That is on the dark side of the garage, the side I have little control over :(
Thanks Julian, I feel like its getting there now. I should have the bottom end finished really soon.
The lorry side is pretty thick, I guess it would take a little while to get through it.
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Unusual motor, I like it :)
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Thanks Buddy
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And very fast!
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Thanks Buddy :)
Its burnt out its second fan relay this evening, then fan now stays on :(
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What year/model is it? and does it have the burbling essex 3 litre?
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Its a 1976 model, so its an SE6. It did have the lovely essex engine, but now has a vauxhall v6 engine from an omega. Hopefully i'll get that to burble soon, but at the moment it idles just above 1000rpm.
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Hi again folks. I little advice please.
I'm hoping to be mounting the condensor this weekend and was thinking about the heat exchanger.
I know where it goes and how it helps, but I was wondering:
Do you get some methanol collecting in the heat exchanger?
Does this mean you have to mount it in a certain orientation?
What is a suitable size, is there one you all use?
Would it be worthe getting a bigger one as I have the built in the ability to fit a second heater at some point in the future?
Thanks for any advice you can offer
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(http://i57.tinypic.com/10eo39j.jpg)
Flat plate heat ex mounted on my gl, note the incline.
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I should have one in centeral stores you can have. It will get meth in it as will the pipe leading to it so mount it so it can drain.
If you want the one in CS let me know and I will see if I do still have it.
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Mine's a proprietary, multi tube heat exchanger, but the orientation is similar.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/re-orientated_shhe.jpg)
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Thank you all that answers the question perfectly.
I would love to have that one Dick, but you have to accept money for it, they seem to cost quite a bit!
Are you soldering these? Are they not soldered in construction? Do you have to be a bit careful when soldering or are they welded construction?
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I will have a look today and let you know. The one I have is stainless and may have screw fittings but they vary, some do some don't, the stainless ones are welded, not seen a soldered one but I stand to be corrected!
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I think flat plate heat exchangers are silver soldered.
As found in many combi boilers, they can be threaded, push fit or just a plain face mating with an "O" ring seal.
This is a push fit drilled out to take a 15mm pipe. You need to drill quite accurately as there's very little meat left.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/FPHE drilled for15mm.jpg)
This is a flat face unit, to which I silver soldered some sawn off, 15mm tap connectors.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/FPHE1.jpg)
Finished job.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/FPHE2.jpg)
Pressure test ... someone on the VOD said it couldn't be done. It's nice showing naysayers they're wrong!
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/FPHE3.jpg)
They claimed that the plates would become unsoldered if you tried silver soldering connections, but wrapoping in wet rags and working quickly to reduce heat transfer worked well.
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Lozzzz I have 2 you can choose from, both stainless one flat plate one tube with a variety of fittings.
J nice to see a vernier surface gauge in the background, I hope that is not the surface plate being used as a bench!
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No, surface plate is stored safely under the bench, but I have to admit I very rarely use it these days.
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Superb! I could pop in tomorrow to get it between 5 and 6 if not the weekend or next week perhaps?
Thanks Dick
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Tomorrow is fine see you after 5.
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Well this morning I made a little more progress and the bottom end of the processor is finally looking pretty much finished.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140608_123658.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140608_123658.jpg.html)
I've been busy cutting and drilling the heat exchanger that I got from Dick (Thank you very much) and have soldered in some 15mm to 22mm reducers.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140608_123711.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140608_123711.jpg.html)
And attached it to the top end of the condenser.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140608_123723.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140608_123723.jpg.html)
More to come
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You have your pump and feed in funnel the wrong way round, your flow will be slowed considerably in that configuration.
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Indeed it will. I thought about that one long and hard, and in the end went with the thinking that the pump is man enough to manage. It all fits a bit better this way.
I've now tried it and the pump with a full tank and it is still pumping into the tank so fast that air is being pulled through to the bottom of the cone and back through the pump. Its mental. I also timed it. It empties the whole tank (well about 160l) is 23 seconds.
I might put a T piece in to half the speed into the tank.
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Ah, a feed in funnel, now that is a good idea. I can feel that modification coming on.
Nice work.
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I've now tried it and the pump with a full tank and it is still pumping into the tank so fast that air is being pulled through to the bottom of the cone and back through the pump. Its mental. I also timed it. It empties the whole tank (well about 160l) is 23 seconds.
Was that with oil or water?
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Ah, a feed in funnel, now that is a good idea. I can feel that modification coming on.
Nice work.
Great for putting glyc in, I've had one for quite some time now. Not exactly the same but it does the same job.
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Ah, a feed in funnel, now that is a good idea. I can feel that modification coming on.
Nice work.
Works well but make it deeper if you have a 'normal' pump. I have used a 1 gallon parafin tank with the bottom cut off. Works really well with a tam. It also just fits a flower sieve for BCBs as Jim says ideal for glyc and adding a cubie for getting the level just right.
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Thanks for the advice. Where it would be a marvellous benefit to me is getting some oil in to start off with, instead of having to tip it in through the top. Once I've got 20 litres in, I can suck the rest up before the pump.
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That was with water, I guess the oil might slow the pump down a bit, but less so when hot.
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I started off with a feed in funnel but I changed it to loading the processor by pumping straight from a settling tank. The advantages of having a settling tank for your feedstock are 1. Most of the bits drop out without filtering and 2. If you put the settling tank outside you won't make a mess pouring oil in your work space. I put the glyc into the settling tank and when the glyc level reaches the wvo take off point I drain the bottom of the tank which takes out all the old glyc plus whatever particles and lumps have settled out of the oil into the glyc layer. The glyc in the settling tank helps dry the oil too.
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I have a settling tank, that pumps into the processor, but that has usually got solid palm in it, till I heat it up. I also use the processor for processing WVO, so sometimes need to just dump some liquid in it.
As you say, it's pretty good for the lumps to drop out before it gets in the processor.
Not so nice cleaning it out though.......
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For general filling I use a large plastic bucket, an ex cattle lick bucket about 60L, with a pipe that I link to the pump. Tank sits on a stand slightly above the pump. Easy to pour in from tins, cubies or to pump into with the lutz. A big strainer on top takes care of the lumps and it can be put away after filling.
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Best way I've found of filling the processor and generally transferring oil, glycerin and bio around is a Mono pump.
I have mine piped and valved so it can run in parallel with the processor pump, run independently on a couple of flying hoses or pump anything in or out of the processor.
There's no lifting containers, no glugging and splashing when decanting oil etc etc. I've even used the pressure the Mono creates to dislodge solidified glycerin from pipe work.
Thourough recommend the setup.
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Did some more this morning. Again its doesn't look like masses but I'm gradually thinking things through and know how I'm going to complete the processor now. Well all except the venturi, I'll have a go at making some bits as per the wiki page and see how that goes then hopefully cast something.
I've got the main circulation nipple welded in the top of the tank now:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140614_103531.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140614_103531.jpg.html)
I've sorted the down pipe to feed the little pressure switch that Dick kindly gave me. I tired it in the pond.... Wow!!! that is one sensitive switch, it clicks when the pipe is just 2.5cm into the water. That is sod all pressure, very impressive. Still need the electrics but the end is now in sight for all the hardware of the processor.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140614_103515.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140614_103515.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140614_103521.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140614_103521.jpg.html)
Put some extra bits on the condenser. This is now pretty much ready to mount.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140614_103559.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140614_103559.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140614_103607.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140614_103607.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140614_103620.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140614_103620.jpg.html)
And lastly I replaces the massive valve for a more reasonably sized valve to take the bio in to the settling tank.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140614_113056.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140614_113056.jpg.html)
Dick, any chance of a visit again. Got a couple of questions, and I can bring back the heat exchanger I didn't use too, and pay you for the other one :)
More to come
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Might be guilding the lilly, but to reduce the risk of carry over from the condenser can you common the four bottom vapour pipes in some plenum arrangement, with a bottom drain for the methanol and a top out let for vapour.
That way the velocity of the vapour slows significantly allowing the entrained methanol to drop out cleanly.
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I see your point, and its a good one. Its taking me ages to get this ting made though so I'll put it on the list of upgrades for the future.
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It will most likely work fine as it is. You could fit a tell-tail to check ...
http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Tips_and_wrinkles_1#Condenser_tell-tail
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Yeah I quite fancy something like that only using one of these with a tank connector both top and bottom, then I can see the rate of flow from the condenser into the tub. (Dicks idea not mine)
http://dornob.com/dual-lid-design-turns-jar-on-its-head-opens-at-both-ends/#axzz34dhLyBk0
Can't seem to find where I can get one though.
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I wonder why you can't find one?
I had a conversation with head womble a while back, he wanted to do a similar thing but I think it all had to do with draining glycerine.
Anyway thoughts were to do the bottle cutting trick (there are several detailed on the web) to from a tube and then clamp a couple of square flanges with gaskets either end using studding.
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Hi Lozzzz,
Should be home tomorrow pm, car boot am, give me a ring and come on down.
Dick
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Got lots done this weekend.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140622_113246.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140622_113246.jpg.html)
Its PP, I'm not sure if it'll tolerate the Methanol, so I've lined it up so that the methanol will dribble into the lower tank connector (which is now cone shaped) so with any luck it won't touch the PP at all.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140622_113304.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140622_113304.jpg.html)
Mounted the condenser now too.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140622_113331.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140622_113331.jpg.html)
And the top is looking more complete now (although the venturi is not yet a venturi).
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140622_113352.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140622_113352.jpg.html)
I'm going to cast the venturi based on about 100l/m (the pump is 300l/m) then the large ball valve can be adjusted on the top of the tank to direct more or less through the venturi.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140622_113357.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140622_113357.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140622_113433.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140622_113433.jpg.html)
I know you won't like the flexi tubing, but I'll be keeping a close eye on it as time goes by.
I'm hoping to have a good go at venturi casting this weekend and there are various electronics on their way. I can't wait to test it
More to come
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I've been busy:)
I made these
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140627_162408.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140627_162408.jpg.html)
But before casting I wasn't happy with the way the venturi inlet was connected to the flow:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140622_113433.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140622_113433.jpg.html)
I'm sure you all agree that the flexi pipe should be changed :) What really swayed it for me was a little calculation I did. The pump can generate 3bar of pressure, that eqautes to quite a force trying to pull the flexi pipe off the metal pipe. So I've gone with a welded joint instead.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140628_074300.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140628_074300.jpg.html)
Then just after welding I did something really really stupid. I dropped the aluminium cone into the steel pipe (knowing that it was near enough an interference fit, the welding will have distorted the steel, and the steel is currently red hot). Of course it dropped into the place nicely. Then as the steel cooled it became impossible to get it out!!
What an idiot moment!!!
Anyway after a while in the freezer it came out without too much trouble.
Then I tweaked it and cast the venturi this morning.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140628_082929.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140628_082929.jpg.html)
It works a treat!!! Its a real sucker. I did have to close the large valve on top forcing more flow through the venturi as the throat is about 11mm but it really picks up and would suck a golf ball through a garden hose :)
I tested the venturi sucking on some water about 1m below the venuri, it pulled 1litre through in about 15 seconds.
This was the kaos inside:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140628_093043.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140628_093043.jpg.html)
As the photo shows I've divided the main flow into the tank into two to slow it down a little. The pump is such a beef-cake that it is still dragging air all the way down to the bottom and drawing bubbles through the pump. But the pump can be turned down a little with the valve on the pump.
I then moved onto the bubbler for the settling tank. I used a couple of car brake lines and cut little holes in them. The pump has two outlets producing 240l/h of air (I guess this depends a little on depth). Judging by this info and the photos, do you good folk think this is enough bubbling?
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140628_124442.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140628_124442.jpg.html)
I've offset the two pipes to one side of the tank to try and set up a current to circulate the bio (water in this case) so that it all gets bubbled through. I tested it with food dye and there does seem to be a very slow "convection" current.
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140628_123636.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140628_123636.jpg.html)
More to come
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So ... is it a spot the difference competition between these two photos?
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140622_113433.jpg)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140622_113433.jpg)
Glad to hear the venturi turned out ok.
Very wise move in getting shot of the plastic ... should be replicated elsewhere me thinks. Just a thought with the venturi ... if you have the suction vertical, there's less chance of fluid draining down the suction when the pump is stopped.
Is the bubbling for washing or just removing the remnants of the methanol? Difficult to tell from a still photo, but I'd say fine for the former and probably a little low for the latter. If you've used a long length of brake line, it may function better with a larger bore delivery line.
But looking great, keep up the good work.
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Good progress, it can't be too long now till you use it in anger?
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Thanks guys :)
Not long now Dick. The list is ever reducing but still consists of:
Fit taps and a filter to the settling tank, then put it in place under the lean-to
Get a large water tank and put it in place under the lean-to
Put the lorry curtain on the lean-to
Fit the dosing tank with the suction pipe
Fit the timer, temp controller and relays (still got to get the relays)
And that's pretty much it :) :) Can't wait to try it out.
The bubbling is for demething for 24 hours? in the settling tank after processing. Think I need more bubbles? I could always do it for longer, or is it better to go with more bubbling while the bio is hot from the processor?
Julian,
The photo's are the same??
That's a good point with the venturi inlet. I am a little limited for height under the lean-to and its getting rather close, but if there's room, I'll move it up.
Thanks again :)
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The more bubbles the better. Lots of small bubbles are better than few big ones. The more bubbles the less time they are needed but an air pump takes relatively small amount of electric and if you organise your production there should be weeks to settle and bubble after productio before it goes into the tank. (It's hard to wait to use the first batch though!)
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I'll get a more meaty bubbler then.
I don't think I'm going to have too much trouble with not using the first batch Dick :)
I currently have two petrol cars :)
I still need to get a filter (and do the j-cloth thing to it). I was thinking of plumbing it into the outlet tap from the settling tank.
This would be fine right??
There are a few about on ebay would someone kindly point me to one that has proven to be a good-un?
Thanks
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Thanks guys :)
The photo's are the same??
That's my point ... they are in your post!
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Oh yeah :)
Corrected!
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I'll get a more meaty bubbler then.
I don't think I'm going to have too much trouble with not using the first batch Dick :)
I currently have two petrol cars :)
I still need to get a filter (and do the j-cloth thing to it). I was thinking of plumbing it into the outlet tap from the settling tank.
This would be fine right??
There are a few about on ebay would someone kindly point me to one that has proven to be a good-un?
Thanks
Should have a clear 10" filter spare and an element to get you going, I will have a look later.
I filter as it is transferred from the settling tank to the storage tank but I know others filter after storage.
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Dick, that would be great. I'll pay you for it though please :)
Would wednesday night be any good, I will have been back to parents by then so could bring over the large hose too.
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As long as it is before 8 as it is pub night! But wait till i have checked what is in central stores to see if what i have got will do.
I have been in the tub tonight (with Dolly Parton!) but will look and post tomorrow.
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Sounds good!
One of my students is giving away his hot tub, a 7 person jobby! Shame I've got no means of getting it, not to mention nowhere to put it yet :(
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Tubs fit on my trailer!
I have a 10" filter enclosure and elements so come over on Wed.
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If I ever upgrade my processor to a bigger one I might well be interested in a cast Venturi to the same design, so hold onto the bits! In the meantime, my dickjotec design Venturi is doing fine for my 100L plant so thanks for putting it out there dickjotec.
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Glad the design proved useful to you. I came up with the idea for people who had no machining facilities or metal bashing skills for the GL Venturi.
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If I ever upgrade my processor to a bigger one I might well be interested in a cast Venturi to the same design, so hold onto the bits! In the meantime, my dickjotec design Venturi is doing fine for my 100L plant so thanks for putting it out there dickjotec.
If you're interested in a professionally made venturi built to match your specific pump give me a shout, you can have it in any size steel or copper pipe.
Methoxide injection speed is dependant on your plumbing but could be as fast as 2.8secs/ltr, yes that IS 2.8secs/ltr.
No they're not that expensive, just ask the dozens of peeps all over the world who have one.
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If that was the design brief then you nailed it.
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If I ever upgrade my processor to a bigger one I might well be interested in a cast Venturi to the same design, so hold onto the bits! In the meantime, my dickjotec design Venturi is doing fine for my 100L plant so thanks for putting it out there dickjotec.
If you're interested in a professionally made venturi built to match your specific pump give me a shout, you can have it in any size steel or copper pipe.
Methoxide injection speed is dependant on your plumbing but could be as fast as 2.8secs/ltr, yes that IS 2.8secs/ltr.
No they're not that expensive, just ask the dozens of peeps all over the world who have one.
Thanks. I'll bear that in mind. At the moment I'm making bio for two little cars in the family which probably do no more 10,000m between them. In the next year or so I want to change my own car to something that runs bio (I do 18,000m pa) and then my two youngest sons will be learning to drive too. So you can see why I'll need a bigger plant than my 90L per batch, copper hot water tank, GL processor. This time 2015, I'll get in touch with you about Venturi ( or full build ) options.
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I got a few 4pin, 3 phase lugs and sockets sorted so changing from the lathe to the pump will be a lot quicker now:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140702_212500.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140702_212500.jpg.html)
And got a solid pipe from the pump the top of the tank, its really getting there:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140702_212554.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140702_212554.jpg.html)
Starting on the electrics next :)
More to come
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Is that a single to 3 phase converter? If so what type is it and any advice on getting a reasonably priced one?
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Looking good there. Coming along nicely.
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Thanks Greasemonkey! :)
Dick,
That's right. At the time I thought I was being ripped off, I paid £300 for it (bought it at the same time as the lathe). It can manage at least 5hp, I think it might even do more. Luckily the lathe is about 3hp so I've connected the converter to a 13 amp socket. I set it to 2hp to run the pump.
I'm afraid I don't know a great deal about it other than what you have already spotted. I.e. its a converter rather than a an inverter, and its not a rotary type. What I can tell you is that there doesn't seem to be too much in the way of expensive component in it. I bet it could be made for a lot less than I paid for it. If you want to copy it you are more than welcome to study it. There is a transformer, a funny relay thing, some switches and a load of capacitors in the box that seems to be it.
I could bring it over if you want to have a look over it?
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I got the control box finished over the week, then fitted it today and gave it a fairly good test.
I put some measurements on the side of the sight tube, and set about heating 160l of water up to 60 degrees C.
I took about 20mins to heat up by 10 degrees C. by my calculations (based on SHC of water and Veg oil) the two heaters should have 160l of oil up to 60 degrees C in less that 40 mins :) :)
As you can see in the video there is room to raise the venturi inlet to the vertical position. I have now done that since taking the video.
I'm hoping to try it with oil tomorrow. Then I'll finish the lean-to and get the ground ready and get the settling tank in place.
Not long now :) :) :) :)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140711_202807.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140711_202807.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/th_20140711_173833.mp4) (http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140711_173833.mp4)
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That all looks nice and tidy. Next job is to ditch that funnel thingy and get an ibc or some barrels to keep your wvo in and a pipe from the storage to your processor. You'll find out why when you start using the funnel!
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I'm not fully happy with it at the moment. I don't mind pouring it in, but it quite easily spills over the top. It'll be make of brake for that tomorrow when I try it with oil and with the gauze on top.
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Temperature rise in real world is non-linear (i dont know if you figured this into your calculations)
Ie, takes not long to get from 10c to 25c, but way longer to get from 25c to 40c.
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Indeed it is, I did not figure this into my calculation though as it is far less significant in a processor than in a kettle for example. There are a number of reasons:
Firstly the processor is insulated (although the top wasn't at the time)
Secondly the surface are to volume ratio is way better in the processor due to its enormous volume and relatively small surface area.
Thirdly, with two heaters it takes relatively little time to heat when compared to cooling time, this further backs up the first two reasons.
I tried it with oil today, 150 liters. It went up 10 degrees in 7m40s then a further 10 degrees in the same time then 8m, then 8m, then just under 8mins. Strange! I only took it to 75 degrees
Sorry for about that, I teach this subject to HND students and love thermodynamics.
Just a few jobs remain now, insulate the pipes, fit the taps to the settling tank, fit a better way of loading it, and sort the bubbling pipes.
On that note, I could really do with some help. I've used brake pipe and cut little slots into it at intervals, but I'm really not happy with it. What do you folk use for bubbling? Will a fish tank bubbling stone survive in the settling tank?
Any help on this would be much appreciated.
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some fish airstones are ok some are not and break up someone will advise which if you want to use one, I cannot as I use a copper pipe ring, approx 8mm pipe with small holes drilled in it.
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I use a 15mm copper ring with holes in it. I have used fish tank bubblers, from memory the grey ones are ok in bio but the blue ones dissolve but I stand to be corrected on that as it was a long time ago. In the settling tank now I normally use just an open pipe with a nut on it to sink it which works fine for me.
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I use a grey one, had no problems with it. The blue one only lasted two sessions
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I use sintered bronze pneumatic air mufflers, like this:
(http://img15.imagefra.me/i5cu/tttonyyy/mnpc_b74_u886p.jpg)
In action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJjWR_h2qdk
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And I use one of these.
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii82/jamesrl47/Airring1.jpg) (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jamesrl47/media/Airring1.jpg.html)
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Thanks a lot folks, that a great help. I've got some copper tube to do something similar to what you show there James. I'll be drilling 2mm holes in it. What size holes have you got there?
Thanks again everyone
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Thanks a lot folks, that a great help. I've got some copper tube to do something similar to what you show there James. I'll be drilling 2mm holes in it. What size holes have you got there?
Thanks again everyone
1.5mm holes and the ring is approx 225mm diam. powered by a 55lt/min Hailea pump.
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And I use one of these.
(http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii82/jamesrl47/Airring1.jpg) (http://s262.photobucket.com/user/jamesrl47/media/Airring1.jpg.html)
You want to get some one that has a 3d printer to print you plastic one, copper is so last year ;D
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Yeh but no 'ere listen an' keep it to y'self, the printer's workin'.
I'm looking for a plugin to draw and print tubes, I could even print you a jet engine..
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If you want to make small holes in copper, try a hardened steel spike used as a punch. If you can grind one up very sharp and resharpen when necessary, it's very quick, accurate and no broken drills.
You can get much smaller holes than 1.5mm if you're careful.
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I'll give that a go, thanks for the tip.
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If you want to make small holes in copper, try a hardened steel spike used as a punch. If you can grind one up very sharp and resharpen when necessary, it's very quick, accurate and no broken drills.
You can get much smaller holes than 1.5mm if you're careful.
You can drill as small as a number 80 which, if memory serves, is 0.015", just under 0.4mm.
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If you want to make small holes in copper, try a hardened steel spike used as a punch. If you can grind one up very sharp and resharpen when necessary, it's very quick, accurate and no broken drills.
You can get much smaller holes than 1.5mm if you're careful.
You can drill as small as a number 80 which, if memory serves, is 0.015", just under 0.4mm.
Undoubtedly, but it's much easier and cheaper to hit things with hammers.
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Undoubtedly, but it's much easier and cheaper to hit things with hammers.
If you sharpen the end of your punch like a hypodermic it'll pierce the tube with less load on the rather thin shaft.
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I think I have some 15 thou drills if you want to try drilling.
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Thanks Dick, I've done the punching already though.
Here is the result. Very pleased with this now:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140715_092816.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140715_092816.jpg.html)(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140715_092838.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140715_092838.jpg.html)
All done. The "to do" list is nearly a thing of the past. I've got to change the loading wok (although it is usable at the mo), collect the storage tanks (I've located two 205l barrels for £10), and drill the holes for the taps in the settling tank.
Aside from drilling the holes, I'm ready to process :) :)
Quite excited :) :) :) :)
Thanks again for all your help in getting this far.
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Oh no you ain't, didn't you notice my holes are facing down, done to prevent crap blocking'm.
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I did notice but thought it would be fine this way if I put it in bubbling and take it out bubbling there should be no opportunity for crap to get in. Hopefully! :)
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I did notice but thought it would be fine this way if I put it in bubbling and take it out bubbling there should be no opportunity for crap to get in. Hopefully! :)
You'll have enough crap on the floor without adding to it with a dripping bubble ring, I've had years of experience at making a mess so I know all about it.
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I've done my first batch :) :) :)
I got 20l of glyc out having only put 15l of meth oxide in at the first stage. Perhaps I need to leave it longer to settle.
I think I've got about B91 or B92 in the settling tank now, fine for the pug 106 but improvement needed for a PD engine I think :)
I took my first 45/5 test after 8 minutes, and the result was the same as after a further 5 minutes so I assume the reaction was over in under 10 minutes. I started at 8am and was done by midday, then faffed on a lot putting things away and checking everything over. I'll try and be a bit more efficient next time.
I definately want one of those jazzy separating flasks with a test tube bottom end on though. Is there someone on here selling them?
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Well done.
How much oil? How much NaOH. How long did you react the first stage for? What was the result (45/5)? How much did you put in for the second stage and again what was the result?
Do a 50/50 test when you can so that you have a reference after 24 48 hours etc.
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Oooops forgot to do a 50/50 test straight away and I'm not there now. Its been bubbling since 2ish is it worth getting the folks to take a sample now?
Well..
I drained some more off before starting as its had had 48 hours to settle, I ended up taking about 5l off leaving 145l to start. I'm pretty sure that oil I drained off is quite dry (hot pan test) so I'll drain a lot less next time.
I then did the calcs you gave me (based of 150l rather than 145, just realised :) ). Anyway that meant 15l meth 750g NaOH.
The reaction was complete in under 10 mins
Drained 20L of glyc
The 45/5 test then resulted in 1.25ml of veg oil so 75% conversion so far.
Based on what you gave me, I then added 3.35l of Meth and 167g of NaOH,
I mixed for another 10 mins
Drained about 3L of glyc
The 45/5 then gave 0.45ml of veg oil unreacted meaning 91% conversion.
I must have made a mistake somewhere though as I started with 145L, added a total of 18L of meth, and drained about 23L of glyc, yet ended up with 134L of bio before draining the tank. I'll pay more attention next time.
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A ten minute reaction is possible but I would leave it a bit longer and see if it goes any further. I tend to react for 45 - 60 mins. Jim may drop by and offer his best times.
A bit more meth on the second stage may have pushed it further 18L is on the limit.
A return of 93% is a good return.
I would not concern the folks with doing a 50/50, it is more to see the difference as the days pass.
If you wanted it for the PD there is nothing stopping you doing a 3 stage, with your reaction times it is done in ten mins.
How long are you letting the glyc settle for?
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I gave it about an hour before draining.
I was going to ask about that. I seems both steps was not enough to get it to B100 so I was thinking I would have to add more than the calc suggest for a 3rd stage to push it all the way to 100%. Is it more of both chemicals of just the Meth?
Am I right in thinking the 50/50 is to test for..... no I can't remember. Forgive me, I feel like I've learned so much from you especially now I've tried loads of it for myself, but the 50/50 has escaped my memory. I remember doing it but not what it shows??
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Third stage is calculated just like the second stage but I think if you had just added a bit more meth it may have completed.
Next time you process use the same calcs but after stage one add a bit of meth and see if you get it further, you can also try the same after second stage if needed ( no need to drain glyc). You will then know if the reaction has stopped for the lack of meth or catalyst. (If the additional meth makes no difference then all the catalyst has been used up.)
50/50 is another name for the water test for soap. (Half bio half water). If you want to be more accurate Nigelb does a soap testing kit.
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Good thinking, I like that plan. I'll give it a try.
Could you elaborate on "no need to drain glyc"? Do you mean after the second stage and before the 3rd? Or no need after second stage at all?
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He means for the 3rd stage, there won't be much glyc after 2nd stage.
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Correct also don't drain glyc if just adding meth to see if the reaction goes further. Drain before second stage.
Do, of course drain glyc before transferring to settling tank.
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Well i'm back at the folks house and have taken a sample for the 50/50 test. This is it after 10 minutes:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140723_145744.jpg)
I think this means tjere is no soap as th water is clear? Right?
It doesn't seem to have the creamy boundary though, i can't remember what that meant.
If i'm right about the lack of soap does that mean the oil mist have been nice and dry to start?
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A job to see how clear the water is, it should be crystal clear if there is no, or little, soap. Let it sit overnight to get a proper reading. If yo have a laser you can shine that through it and the beam should not disperse.
It is not an indication of dry oil particularly, rather that the soap created by processing has fallen out. In order for the soap in the bio to settle out all the methnol must be removed ( the meth keeps the soap in suspension) this is the reason for bubbling.
Take a number of tests over the comming days to compare the settling. Once you have seen the process through on this first batch there is no need to do it each time, just test befor you move it to the storage tank to make sure it is soap free.
The lack of an intermediate layer shows good conversion, no mono or di glycerides.
Btw I assume you took the sample from the bottom tap on the tank?
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I understand, well there shoukd be very lottle meth left its still bubbling now, some 30 hours its jad so far. i took it from the top tap. I thought they would give the same result as the bubbler is moving the liquid about a bit. I'll take it from tue bottom next time.
Thanks for the informative reply
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The water test is something so vague you have to learn how to feel it. Depends on many things not least of all water softness and glass cleanliness. Sometimes blobs stick to the sides and make it look murky when it isn't.
The titrated soap test is the definitive answer, and NigelB here used to and may still well supply kits for this purpose. I've got one and use it for confirmation on batches which are ambiguous with the water 50:50 test.
I use quite a violent vane pump for transferring my settled bio around and what stands out more than anything is the behaviour of the bio after this aggressive pumping, which introduces a lot of air bubbles into the bio. If it's soap-free the bubbles quickly disperse, but if there is some soap left they take longer to go, and in bad cases form a layer of bubbles on top that don't quickly disperse. So I tend to gauge soapyness on that now more than anything else.
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do you still have a thin white layer in between the bio and the water?
did you do any water washes in the processor after demething?
I do one acid wash then 2 or 3 water washes all at 55 60c then heat to dry bio. It then gets 12 hrs bubble 24 hrs later i get Crystal clear 50/50 test with no white layer.
My last 3 batches have been high acidity values 18 g,p,l.
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Thanks Tony, all helpful info.
I've heard about water washing but I didn't do any this time. There is no white layer.
I used so little Meth, that I didn't even de-meth, just gave it a serious bubbling (60L/m bubbler) for 48 hours. I intend to de-meth when I try and make fuel for a PD engine soon.
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I've been running a polo gti 04 plate for 7000 miles on b100. only problem was needed to change fuel filter after about 5000 miles, was stuttering when turbo kicked in. filter had bits in it that were from inside of pipes (thin tube shaped brown film)
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I did another batch on Saturday. I did 150L this time.
First I filled up with 160L, heated, left over night and drained 5L off.
This left 150L !!!!! I lost some last time too? but I've figured it out. No matter how quickly I pour it in the pump pulls in air too so I'm getting about 5L of bubbles in the oil once it's up to 160L. No matter, now I know.
So I mixed up 15.5L of Meth with 775g of NaOH (did this friday night shorlty after loading the machine, so I still thought I would be working with 155L).
Dosed and mixed for 15 mins (mixed for longer on the second stage).
45/5 test gave 2.5ml so 50% veg still. There was no 135L left after draining the glyc.
Based on this volume I added 6.5L and 325g NaOH and mixed for half and hour.
At this point, in the interest of learning a bit about it, I added 5L more meth, to see how much further that would push it.
45/5 test gave 0.65ml so 13% veg oil before adding the 5L of meth and 0.125ml or 2.5% veg oil after adding the excess Methanol.
You could argue either way here and say the extra Meth pushed it a little further over to bio or it was the extra mixing time (another half hour).
Anyway... based on all the above info I concluded that I needed a further 17.5g of NaOH to get B100. Mixed with another 1L of meth it went in for another half hour and B100 was the result. No fall out at all after the final 45/5 test. Result!!!!!! :)
Then into the settling tank for 48 hours of bubbling.
The first water test resulted in this:
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20140823_122743.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20140823_122743.jpg.html)
Perhaps a bit of water still in the oil then!!!??? I have a little go at condensing the water out first next time, in the interest of slowing the built up in the bottom of the settling tank.
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How long after processing was this sample taken, how long has that been settling for and where in the tank did it come from?
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Dick,
It was straight after it went in, less than 10 mins. It was from the bottom tap. And that is after 24 hours of sitting in the rack.
I've taken another sample now, and after sitting in the rack for a while it seems the proportions are similar, but the white layer now looks like a sponge with clear water in the gaps
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Your method sounds a bit odd to me, especially the amounts of methanol and NaOH you are using in various stages.
From my point of view:
- Heating and settling your oil will not dry it properly, and wet oil is the main cause of failed or crap batches. Dry it, then dry it some more! You have the means to do it on that processor so use it.
- You are using too little methanol and too much NaOH in the first stage, look at using 14% meth and 4g/l NaOH - use the right amounts and don't fanny about bunging in bits and pieces here and there to see what happens. Get a good baseline where you get consistently good results and then start tweeking or you won't know what has made a difference.
- You are not reacting long enough 10-15 mins isn't enough, you can run it for an hour and take samples at various intervals to check when the reaction stalls then cut the time back if you want.
- As you have used way too much NaOH, you will have produced a fair bit of soap, hence your low yield. 1100g of catalyst for 150L of oil is KoH territory, 700g of NaOH should have been enough.
- The 50/50 test photo proves my points above - a ton of soap in there has caused that emulsion in it.
Get the basics right and the rest is easy.
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Lozzzz Have a look at the spongy sample tomorro and I think you will see that it looks a lot better.
Richard, I start with 750g on a 160 batch and add more for the second atage. When we were single stage alow titrating oil, say 2, would have had over 1000g to convert. His pump is seriously powerful, hence the short processing times. I do agree on the wet oil though.
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Thanks for your encouragement Richard.
This is my second batch. The method I used was exactly the same as for my first batch (for the first two stages) with the only difference being after that when I added the extra methanol. I altered one variable so it wasn't guess work.
I'll take your advise on board though thanks. I thought it was very wet oil when that result came out.
In my first batch I followed the same procedure, i.e. heating, leaving overnight, draining 5L, no distilling the water out and there was no soap drop out at all. I guess that was a lucky one then!!
Dick,
I'll not see it till Wednesday night now, but it'll be the first thing I do when I get back to the folks house :)
When I pulled the bubbler out I could feel the little feet I put on the bubbler ring were semi stuck in the gloop at the bottom :) I guess it'll need cleaning out before too long :(
I will defo give drying the oil a go next time.
Regarding the reacting time. I took samples at intervals when I did my first batch and found the reaction was all done after 8mins, so I was being generous and rounding up to half an hour for the second stage.
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I'm an advocate of using the bare minimum of chemicals to do the job, and in doing that reducing the soap produced. I will use 3.5g/l NaOH on S1 and 4g/l for the remainder on S2, and generally get 80%+ conversion on S1. The last few batches I've done I used no more than 750g NaOH on 165L batches. I don't titrate, but the oil consistently titrated around the 2 mark. Total meth usage is now under 15%, this is from getting a good pass baseline for my oil and tweaking the chemicals downwards.
Lozz admits he can't say whether adding more methanol or the additional pumping time gave the increased conversion, so he cannot say after just two batches that the reaction stalled after 15 mins, it may have continued if processed for longer, even though it may be a beast of a pump - it depends on the agitation within the processor. You can't presume that just because it's a big pump then it will convert in 15 mins.
What I was saying is that you need to get good passes then tweak your processing times/chemical amounts so you maintain a good pass without overdosing and producing a shed load of soap or glyc.
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If I take a sample at the end of process my 50/50 would be the same as yours. What i do is an acid wash in the processor then two or three water washes, then transfer to settling tank and bubble for 12 to 24 hours.
after 12hrs of stopping the babbler i get clear water at the top of tank and clear from the bottom 24 to 48 hrs later.
When i say clear, I can shine a laser through it and not see the trace in the water.
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Regarding the reacting time. I took samples at intervals when I did my first batch and found the reaction was all done after 8mins, so I was being generous and rounding up to half an hour for the second stage.
Thing here is if you under dosed with methanol, which you did at 10%, then the reaction would stall fairly quickly, so get the chemicals at a decent level then check the reaction times.
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You make a good point Richard, i have contracted myself. I will try it again at intervals with a bit more meth in stage one ib the name of getting to know the processor
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Oooops, I meant contradicted :) :)
I'm really getting into this soap production now, and as a nice little bi product there is some bio diesel I can use to fuel my car :)
I've failed to dry the oil properly on thursday night. Both relays over-heated and I'd only got to 80 degrees C, there was some water condensing out but it was by no means finished. As predicted there is plenty of soap in it.
I'll not be doing it next time. I fully appreciate the need to get it dry now.
I put 175L in the processor, condensed for a while at 80C then had to go :( Saturday morning I drained off 15L so started the process with 160L
Put 18L of meth and 880g of NaOH this go me to 60% bio (340% soap :) )
I then put 7L of methanol and 340g NaOH, this got it to 95%
Last lot was 3L methanol with 20g NaOH, B100 :)
I then spent a long time condensing plenty of meth out.
It came out of the processor a little cloudy, and was followed by plenty of froth.
I also reacted for well over half and hour each time.
On the plus side I did make a lot, I've ended up with 155L ish this time, whereas its been more like 135ish with the last two. :)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/Picture007-3.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/Picture007-3.jpg.html)
This took from 6.20am till about 3pm, but I was showing a friend the equipment and we chatted for ages.
I've only just got enough at the moment, and its taking so much of my time to make. I'm pursuing B100 in the hope of putting in the girlfriends PD car. The pug I have and the MR2 TDI I'm making will be fine with B80+
I'm needing to brew up every 2 -3weeks to keep me on the road, when I get enough oil the GF will need fuel making every 6-7 weeks.
Lessons learned:
- Stop making B100, I need so much more than the GF and I can make B90ish so much quicker. (less stages, less meth with a great recipe Dick gave me, and therefore no need to condense the meth out)
- When I have enough oil for her too, I'll make B100 every now and again and use a separate settling tank.
- DRY THE OIL, I have to spend more time drying and less time processing
I'm glad I tried making B100 its all been valuable learning, but I'm really glad I went for a pre PD engine to go in my MR2, this is going to save me so much time making fuel.
That's all folks.
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When you can get enough oil to let is settle for a few weeks and pour off the top for general bio you should be able to dry it easier then every few batched do a full dry on the bottoms that have been saved up. The bottoms ie fats will make good summer bio with the tops making good winter bio (it will have a lower temperature cloud point). A plastic cone tank makes the settling, or at least separating the parts, easier.
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I do really need to get on and find one of those.
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I thought that b100 was all bio with no dino and say b80 was 80% bio and 20% dino and not what amount of the batch that has been converted, or am i missing something?
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I thought that b100 was all bio with no dino and say b80 was 80% bio and 20% dino and not what amount of the batch that has been converted, or am i missing something?
Technically you are correct, I think, but if a mix of say 80% fully reacted bio was mixed with 20% veg then it would only be 80% bio diesel. Correctly Lozzzz should call it 100% reacted or zero fallout but I think we all understood what he meant?
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most of my wvo titrates above 20, would it be advisable to use as the added 20% in my 1.9d peugeot partner
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Hi Lozzzzz, reading this what stands out to me is how much experimentation you are doing all at the same time. I suggest that you run some batches with a more basic approach and don't start trying to optimise the process until you can reliably complete the process!
The percentages that work for me are 15% of wvo volume for the total methanol, then split the total methanol 80/20 between the first and second dose. Then 8g of KOH per litre of wvo in the first dose and whatever the dropout from the first stage indicates for the KOH in the second dose.
If I were you I'd run the process for longer too. 15 minutes is very quick by most peoples standards. Your mega pump might be able to get the job done that fast, but time is just another variable in the mix and your process obviously isn't working yet, so why not run for an hour per stage while you get everything else worked out? That would be the easiest way to tick off one potential problem. If you get reliable success with longer processing then you can start reducing the time - but don't mess with any other variables at the same time or you won't be able to be sure which one did what.
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^^^^^^ Just what I was saying 3 weeks ago.
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I agree I'm being a bit too experimental but "obviously isn't working" might be bit strong. I've been doing over 90 miles a day for nearly 4 on bio, its saving me a fortune. I'd say its working! I got to the point where there is no veg oil left and I know exactly what I've done wrong to get lots of soap.
I just need to dry the oil properly before I process. The first batch I did on a recipe Dick gave me worked a treat. I had dry oil (by fluke that time) and 91% IIRC, and it took very little time too.
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Any of the seasoned brewers will tell you that dry oil is absolutely critical to success. Can't stress it enough :) You can get away with all sorts with dry oil.
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Yeah, I've seen that before in someones signature :)
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Yey! I got more done today :) :) :)
Got the MR2 motor out. I've said it before and will no doubt say it many more times... I love working on Toyotas.
Another bit of good news is that I found the TDI engine is 3 inches shorter than the MR2 engine so there's plenty of room :)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20141004_152524.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20141004_152524.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20141004_153632.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20141004_153632.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20141004_153640.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20141004_153640.jpg.html)
Having had a good look at the two, I think I've now got a design in my head for how to make the toyota engine mounts fit the TDI engine.
More to come.
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Looking good!
I hope that's a very substantial beam it appears to be hanging from.
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Yeah, I've got it across 4 beams but it still scares me a little. I put my fears to bed by hanging off it aswell :)
If it can take me and the car it should be fine with just the car :) :)
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I took a day off today and was in the garage all day :) It was like old times, a pig in s*** :) :) :)
I made another 150L of bio diesel. I stripped the Toyota engine loom in an attempt to understanding it and see if I could get the engine bay fan to work in the absence of the engine (I couldn't). So the engine loom now consists of just the reverse light wiring :)
Then stripped the loom to the dials and have identified what I need to make the following warning lights work: main beam, fog lights, handbrake, doors open, and indicators. Then took it to pieces and was delighted to find that the VAG dials will fit in the gap where the Toyota dials used to reside. Result!
As well as that, I've done my usual looking at it for ages and figuring things out, got lots of ideas in my head now. What a great day! :)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20141009_201104.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20141009_201104.jpg.html)
(http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l217/lozzzzzzz_2006/20141009_201054.jpg) (http://s97.photobucket.com/user/lozzzzzzz_2006/media/20141009_201054.jpg.html)
More to come
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OOops wrong place, and I've only just realised.