Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
General => Alternative heat and power => Topic started by: Julian on May 05, 2013, 10:18:25 PM
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Inspired by this web page ... http://woodgears.ca/reader/alois/press.html I had a play making this this evening ...
Lump of 32mm solvent weld waste pipe, a lump of lumber turned to fit on the lathe and a suitable bit of MDF.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/Glog1.JPG)
Loaded with quite a dry mix of glycerine and sawdust and compressed in the vice. As I suspected, the glycerine squeezes out ... doh!
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/Glog2.JPG)
The result comes out as quite a respectable briquette, but quite quickly decompresses and breaks up.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/Glog3.JPG)
I was very impressed with the pressure the waste pipe took as the vice was wound up quite tight, but yet another heroic failure to add to "Julian's list of heroic failures", but I guess you've got to try these things!
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Why is that a failure? Cause it breaks up?
Dont whack it about then! : )
As a side note, i reckon your sawdust looks a bit corse, and your mix a bit wet?
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It's a failure because it reverts to a loose mix of sawdust and and not very much glycerine, most of it having been squeezed out in the manufacturing process (or should that be un-manufacturing process!) and it breaks up of it's own accord.
Sawdust is a mix of fine and shavings. I've tried very fine sawdust and I can see little difference between the two. The mix I tried is about the same as I burn or a little dryer.
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Its got potential.
So you may need something to collect the leaked out glyc.
I reckon the bloke on that tools website started barking up the wrong tree. Far be it from me to say, but with the amount of technology and effort he has put in, I think he would have been better of looking at making a single log at a time.
Dump a measured amount of mixed dust and glyc into a mould, and compress from above, so the ram is going vertical.
Just thinking out loud really.
I wouldn't bother with a hydraulic ram. I'd be looking at something like an old steam hammer. Lift a big weight up the a certain height, the let it go. Far more efficient.
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Making sawdust briquettes works because lignin or I guess, resin helps bind the dust together.
Once the dust is soaked in glycerine, it recon it prevents the lignin from doing it's job. I did try dry saw dust on it's own, but my dust is hard wood with a very low resin content and it probably needed more pressure than the plastic pipe could manage.
I recon my idea of an oversized Rizla machine may be the best bet for glogs.
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Fine sawdust + glyc wrapped in newspaper "like fish,n chips" is all you need to do.
Mix in a bucket,dustbin,cement mixer,whatever.Fast and simple.
K.I.S.S
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Julian,
Ive read that veg oil is somtimes used as a binding agent when the lignin is not sufficient.
That aside -
When i make glogs, i pack them into carpet tube, which isnt much smaller dia than soil pipe.
When ive considered using a ram, ive thought about packing them into these. Ive also thought about some way to fill the whole tube, storing it as a whole length, and then chopping them when needed.
Using the whole length would lessen the packing time, and stop excess falling from the ends when stored. But then the same loss may occurr when sawing before use...
Anyhow, i just thought id mention this, and see if it triggered any more ideas for you!
One final one -
I dont much like this plan, but some sort of auto wrapping device, using clingfilm would make the units much more handle'able.
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I dont much like this plan, but some sort of auto wrapping device, using clingfilm would make the units much more handle'able.
Something like an oversized sausage machine?
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Or line the tube with a freezer type bag before filling?
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what about big heat shrink ?
you could heat it a bit to help squash it a bit extra at the end ?
no idea on cost... or fumes/smell when you burn it tho...
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Interesting, I'll try a bit of veg oil mixed with the sawdust, but I don't think the vice and plastic tube are creating enough compression. I have seen briquette makers with heated barrels and the briquettes coming out charred.
I currently use carpet tubes and fill them by hand and it's a right PITA and messy too. Some glogs leak glycerine in storage and I think that problem will be more prevalent over the summer with the warmer weather.
They also need to be sealed or wrapped for carrying through the house (I currently wrap them in newspaper for trans dwelling journeys) so some of the ideas above are headding in the right direction.
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Quite like the sausage machine idea, but for filling carpet cores.
You'd have to make sure the end was securely closed and that you had some kind of tension control over the feed of the tube. This could then be cut into lengths, but you'd still have the problem of the sawdust uncompressing once cut.
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Do you not just think that you had too much glyc in the mix.
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Err, in a word no.
But I've only my own experience on which to draw. I've tried a dryer mix and to my way of thinking you need a reasonable ratio to get a good flame.
My glogs stay intact throughout their entire burn and evolve gases which usually burn in the secondary air (if I tend the stove regularly). At the end of the glogs burn I can poke them around and they fall appart , burning more fiercely, just right to get the next glog going.
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Err, in a word no.
But I've only my own experience on which to draw. I've tried a dryer mix and to my way of thinking you need a reasonable ratio to get a good flame.
My glogs stay intact throughout their entire burn and evolve gases which usually burn in the secondary air (if I tend the stove regularly). At the end of the glogs burn I can poke them around and they fall appart , burning more fiercely, just right to get the next glog going.
Err...Ok! Just a thought considering the amount of glyc you squezzed out. Sorry....I'm out!
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That's the second time you've used that phrase tonight. You haven't come into a fortune have you with an invitation to sit along side that gorgeous babe Deborah Meaden?
I really don't think it's too wet, but due to the compression, there appears to be precious little glycerine left in the briquette.
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I did watch a couple of episodes of Dragons Den at the weekend. Debs is fine...now Hilary is one scary looking mama ;D
Who was the other girl that used to be on before her main buisness went down the pan?
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Thats the trouble with compressing the mush, you end up using very little glyc, i wonder if reversing it would be better? maybe compress some briquettes then soak them in glyc?
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remember those kids toys - a tiny insect thing, and then you put it in water...
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remember those kids toys - a tiny insect thing, and then you put it in water...
Nope, enlighten me?
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as i remember them, they acted like if you compressed some foam, and then held it in compressed form with some water solluable glue.
BUT -
the ones i had were not foam - they were, IIRC, some sort of jelly stuff. you put this small pill or something in a bowl of water, and it expanded into some jelly scorpion or something (which then, if you tried to lift it out, fell apart)
id imagine they were made of some industrial effluent in the 80s. probably made of foam now.
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Thats the trouble with compressing the mush, you end up using very little glyc, i wonder if reversing it would be better? maybe compress some briquettes then soak them in glyc?
I think you've hit the nail on the head. But soaking the briquettes I've made wont work either because they just don't hold together. The photo below shows, on the right a glog 24hr after compression and a briquettes made from sawdust and veg oil as JulianF suggested. Most of the oil in the latter was squeezed out leaving the dust almost dry.
(http://www.palmergroup.co.uk/Bio/Glog4.JPG)
I think these things need far more pressure than my little test rig can produce.
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I think that, when they use veg oil, they only use very small amounts.
Do you have any steel pipe there? Id imagine even a bit of scaffold would be good for a test?
What does the av. vice go to? Probably nothing even close to a press : (
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Sounds like an excuse to build a hydraulic press to me :)
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I want one... but i dont know enough about them to be able to spot what i need on ebay cheaply : (
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I want one... but i dont know enough about them to be able to spot what i need on ebay cheaply : (
Lumps of metal to make a frame and a big car jack ... open Disco bonnet look front right.
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Yep, i want it speedy ('lectric) though.
The press, i mean, not the dis...
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The suggestion was just for experimentation. If you want speedy electro/hydraulic won't be your answer, unless you go really big. Take a look at all the affordable log splitters and they are incredibly slow compared to splitting with an axe, they're just not quite such hard work.
The best splitter I've seen drives a very heavy flywheel and uses some sort of a clutch driving a crank to which the splitting head is fixed. I'm not sure if the same arrangement can be used for extruding though, because it relies on building up kinetic energy between logs, where as an extruder would need to run continuously.
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Is this an experiment to find something better than carpet tubes or milk cartons?
I haven't really played with glyc logs but seem to remember someone worked out a good ratio of glyc to fine sawdust.......maybe Jules?
Edit: yes, was Jules 30L per cement mixer full of sawdust
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=33453#pid381817
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I made a log maker, but its the same old thing, the idea was to get rid of glyc but by the time i had compressed it very little was used up
(http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm323/KRH01/Logmaker001.jpg)
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What would happen if you let the saw dust soak in the glyc, say for 48 hours, or a week even, and then compressed it? Surely it would retain more glyc that way. By just mixing it and compressing it, there is only a thin layer of glyc on the surface of the sawdust particles, whereas it would be saturated with the stuff after a while.
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The saw dust had been mixed for at least two weeks possibly longer. This process is not really suitable for glogs, they need a means of gently compacing the mix and then confining it in something that won't leak.
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I would imagine glyc soap burns? maybe we could add caustic so it sets solid like glyc bar soap, then it wouldnt need any packaging
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Hmm, I would imagine glyc soap wouldn't burn.
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Like the train of thought but I think the idea derails when you consider putting it on a fire, wouldn't the solid soap melt ... not that I'm a soap expert you understand.
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what is it you are trying to achieve Julian?
longer burning logs?
or just experimenting?
other?
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An easier, less messy, less time consuming way of making them ... pretty much the Holy Glog or should that be Grail?
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Like the train of thought but I think the idea derails when you consider putting it on a fire, wouldn't the solid soap melt ... not that I'm a soap expert you understand.
I wasnt suggesting burning solid bars or soap, more like adding some caustic to help solidify the glyc logs, if it would work
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The saw dust had been mixed for at least two weeks possibly longer. This process is not really suitable for glogs, they need a means of gently compacing the mix and then confining it in something that won't leak.
Ahh that would be newspaper then.
I have been been there done that with shredded paper a ten ton press carpet tubes specially made bricket makers you name it.
What a waste of effort.
Just mix using little glycerol let soak then wrap in nespaper.
The act of wrapping one packet takes less than 60 seconds