Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
General => Alternative heat and power => Topic started by: therecklessengineer on April 23, 2013, 07:48:48 PM
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Lizzie Lister has finally done some useful work.
New big end bearings at the weekend, and today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dETWDSN1B00 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dETWDSN1B00)
When I flick the switch I'm turning off the 3kW heating element - you can hear the speed increase. It's also running a TAM105 at the same time, so a little over 3kW I guess. At maximum fuel it'll hold 4kW, but there's a smokescreen from the exhaust!
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How come the speed increase? I would have thought there to be a momentary dip in speed as the generator presents more load, and then back to normal, as the governor catches up?
(i dont know much about these things though!)
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When I flick the switch I'm turning off the 3kW heating element
At the beginning, it's running loaded. :P
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now i see... : )
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I'm envious - go Lizzie!
How did you manage to lug her into your outbuilding?
So is that a V belt or a flat belt? For a single belt that's good going for 3kw :)
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Very nice, as you probably know my lister is off line, I am waiting for the bits. Don't under estimate the amount of heat you will get. I have just got a hot tub as a heat dump for the summer.
Dick
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I'm envious - go Lizzie!
How did you manage to lug her into your outbuilding?
So is that a V belt or a flat belt? For a single belt that's good going for 3kw :)
A combination of levers, engine crane and swearing. The biggest issue was getting her high enough to drop her onto the studs which were set into the concrete.
It's a flat poly-v type belt. The alternator was originally part of a very cheap chinese genset. The end that has the pulley on it used to be the engine crankshaft. I machined what remained of the crankshaft, and made an adapter to fit a selection of power steering pulleys.
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very clever and nice job!
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She's now done about 10 hours and used 10 litres of fuel (mix of bio and old engine oil) running at an average load of 3kw.
A 170 litre batch of homebrew done entirely on Lister power (with the exception of the compressor for getting the methanol out of the drum)
This could be a win! Now to use the heat generated...
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What's your opinion on the suggested abrasive residue issue with using WMO?
spencer keeps going on about it on any forum he can find, but i can see how there may be some truth in it (i wonder if it may be the ph buffers in the oil)
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I've seen those posts. :o
As you might know, my day job involves running very large engines on a wide range of fuels. Everything from road diesel to HFO 380 - which is so thick and nasty we have to heat it to 120 degrees before we can pump it let alone run an engine on the stuff.
I also deal with the engine oil in such engines, both the analysis and processing of. So I have considerable education and experience in both fields.
Amongst other things in WMO, there is a carbon content which is residue from the combustion process and is quite abrasive. I can imagine it'd do damage to fuel injection equipment. Currently, I'm not that bothered about the small quantity I've put through the Lister - it was really an experiment. However, if I am going to run on WMO long term (and I think I will) then I'll get one of Nathan's centrifuges to remove the carbon sludge from the oil before going into a tank to run the Lister.
There isn't really much else in WMO that is going to damage anything, other than the inevitable coking up of the injector/head. Preheating the oil should reduce this, but I expect Lizzie would need more servicing than she otherwise would.
I was actually very surprised how well Lizzie ran on the stuff. There was hardly a hint of smoke at the 3kW load I had on her.
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Yep, i did know of your background, hence was interested to know what you thought.
What do you think about the pH buffers? Are they calcium compounds, and, if so, would these cause abrasion, post combustion?
The posts from spencer were all about cylinder / exhaust damage. He said he had no issues with any of the components prior to combustion.
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Yep, i did know of your background, hence was interested to know what you thought.
What do you think about the pH buffers? Are they calcium compounds, and, if so, would these cause abrasion, post combustion?
The posts from spencer were all about cylinder / exhaust damage. He said he had no issues with any of the components prior to combustion.
Re-reading my post, I sound like a bit of an arsehole. Apologies for that if it came across that way!
To tell you the truth, I'm not sure what alkaline compounds are used. However, lube oil is generally designed to be partially burnt - some will always find it's way into the combustion space so I can't imagine anything would be added could potentially do damage. And, as far as I am aware, adding alkaline compounds to engine oils has been phased out as the introduction of ULSD has stopped the formation of acidic compounds in the combustion process.
I know that largely the damage is caused by sodium and vanadium compounds when running on HFO. I'm now wondering if these are present in mineral engine oils.
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I did not take it the wrong way at all - no problem there. As i said, i value your input, as, with the removal of the ROCs, i cant see how my own lister is ever going to see active duty. If, however, i could run on WMO, that may well change.
I have the lister, a couple of large (one is in excess of 200kg) PMAs, and a suitable GTI.
...but then the ROCs thing happened : (
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Jolly good. :D
I see no reason why you couldn't run a Lister on WMO - just be prepared for a little more maintenance, and I think adding a centrifuge for the oil before going into a feed tank for the Lister would probably help somewhat.
I'm getting a fuel consumption value of just about 300g/kWh (excluding heat recovered) which is really very good. The Internet seems to suggest about 500g/kWh. By comparison, a modern medium speed CAT diesel (it's the only figure I can remember off the top of my head) uses about 230g/kWh. Admittedly that's at 200kW.
I have a 5kW UPS that I've acquired. I'd like to hook it up to the Lister so I can run at full load for a few hours a day - generate all my hot water and electricity in that time. When I stop the Lister, the UPS then takes over.
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And, as far as I am aware, adding alkaline compounds to engine oils has been phased out as the introduction of ULSD has stopped the formation of acidic compounds in the combustion process.
Interesting stuff. What was crossing my mind is, does WVO or bio produce acids when it burns? Would there be a case for adding some kind of alkalizing agent to the engine oil?
Nice work with the lister by the way. Always nice to see something like that running. I'd find it re assuring to have a way pf producing electric, and plenty of fuel for it, just in case the grid starts going down on a regular basis in years to come.
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Nice one James, it's good to see them working eh, mine has been sat in my field, run regularly just to stand at look and listen to it but otherwise no useful work....one day!
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And, as far as I am aware, adding alkaline compounds to engine oils has been phased out as the introduction of ULSD has stopped the formation of acidic compounds in the combustion process.
Interesting stuff. What was crossing my mind is, does WVO or bio produce acids when it burns? Would there be a case for adding some kind of alkalizing agent to the engine oil?
Nice work with the lister by the way. Always nice to see something like that running. I'd find it re assuring to have a way pf producing electric, and plenty of fuel for it, just in case the grid starts going down on a regular basis in years to come.
if you need a back up cheap chinese genny i have a very good contact. wont link to it here as i think advertising is against forum rules. email me or message me. they are cheap, friendly, very knowledgeable and do all the spares as well. not far from you in coleford.
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Cheers Bob. Getting my own off grid power supply will be something I will look into in the future. I'm convinced in a few years time the lights will start to go out, and it's going to be the rural areas that get hit first. Right now, I've got a few different projects on the go, and they have all come to a halt from lack of investment.........
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Cheers Bob. Getting my own off grid power supply will be something I will look into in the future. I'm convinced in a few years time the lights will start to go out, and it's going to be the rural areas that get hit first. Right now, I've got a few different projects on the go, and they have all come to a halt from lack of investment.........
I agree. I have a start o matic lister that is going to be overhauled then used as a grid tie and power for brewing and workshop with the wiring to backup the house and cabin if/when the power goes off. 8.1 so even more heat at 4kW output.
Dick
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And, as far as I am aware, adding alkaline compounds to engine oils has been phased out as the introduction of ULSD has stopped the formation of acidic compounds in the combustion process.
Interesting stuff. What was crossing my mind is, does WVO or bio produce acids when it burns? Would there be a case for adding some kind of alkalizing agent to the engine oil?
Nice work with the lister by the way. Always nice to see something like that running. I'd find it re assuring to have a way pf producing electric, and plenty of fuel for it, just in case the grid starts going down on a regular basis in years to come.
if you need a back up cheap chinese genny i have a very good contact. wont link to it here as i think advertising is against forum rules. email me or message me. they are cheap, friendly, very knowledgeable and do all the spares as well. not far from you in coleford.
Just to clarify matters ... we are trying to avoid/prevent/outlaw advertising, but recommending/warning of a product of which you've had experience, good or bad is fine, as is posting a link to it. If you feel it merits it, list it on the members "Equipment and services directory" page here ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Equipment_and_services_directory
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And, as far as I am aware, adding alkaline compounds to engine oils has been phased out as the introduction of ULSD has stopped the formation of acidic compounds in the combustion process.
Interesting stuff. What was crossing my mind is, does WVO or bio produce acids when it burns? Would there be a case for adding some kind of alkalizing agent to the engine oil?
Nice work with the lister by the way. Always nice to see something like that running. I'd find it re assuring to have a way pf producing electric, and plenty of fuel for it, just in case the grid starts going down on a regular basis in years to come.
if you need a back up cheap chinese genny i have a very good contact. wont link to it here as i think advertising is against forum rules. email me or message me. they are cheap, friendly, very knowledgeable and do all the spares as well. not far from you in coleford.
Just to clarify matters ... we are trying to avoid/prevent/outlaw advertising, but recommending/warning of a product of which you've had experience, good or bad is fine, as is posting a link to it. If you feel it merits it, list it on the members "Equipment and services directory" page here ... http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Equipment_and_services_directory
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have added a link to the generator supplier. probably made a pigs ear of it as it is my first contribution to the wiki.
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No, not a pigs ear ... good as a first attempt.
I've just moved it to the equipment section and did a little tidying. Could you go back in and add three or four squiggles (can't remember which ... you'll have to experiment) in place of where I put Posted by photoman290.
That should add your forum name and the time and date.
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Just checked and it's 4 squiggles for name and date, thus ... ~~~~
Three squiggles is just your name.
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Looks like it is starting already. Electric has gone off about ten times in the last hour. Flicked back on almost straight away. Seems ok now.
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Just checked out the website and it looks like they only do spares.
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Just checked out the website and it looks like they only do spares.
they do sales as well. ask martyn. think there are so many dodgy ebay sellers they don't bother advertising any more.
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Just an update to this thread.
Investigated the strange grinding noise - turned out to be a well knackered main bearing. Strange thing is - it seems Lizzie is a bit of a weird one. The main bearing on the side that drove the compressor was a split type. The chap I spoke to at stationary engine parts had never come across one like this.
Anyhow, managed to modify a standard bearing to fit into the split casing.
Then she got cooked. My fault - the cooling system was airlocked and I didnt spot it in time. Exhaust valve seat was in pretty poor state after that - zero compression. A quick regrind and she's running again, but I'll need to fit a new seat next time the head is off.
As of this moment though, she is powering the plant cooking up a batch, my dishwasher, laptop, TV and lights.
You could say that this message has been posted by Lister power.
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Very good. Sounds as though its when and not if with listers self immolating. At least they are easy enough to repair. Always amazes me how these old engines always seem to have a thoroughly knackered big end , not just a slightly worn one. Surprising how the keep going so long.
Ae you still running part WMO?
Oh, it's not the big end...........
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i was going down a similar route to remove abrasives from WMO for my waste oil burner. it blocks the needle valve if i don't filter it a bit. i am now trying a peristaltic pump so don't need to filter it. however i did spend some time working out the best way to filter it. i have one of Nathan's centrifuges you can borrow if you like i am a long way from needing it at the moment. i got a pump and half coupling for it but haven't fitted the motor to it yet. i was going to use a B and Q pump which i cannibalised. it still needs the oil to be at 65C. you are welcome to play with it if you like. send me a message.
tried a hydrocyclone, seems to work but you need to heat the oil to 65C to get it thin enough. i then tried an idea from perfo using a self cleaning filter set up . that is still at the experimental stage but from first experiments seems to work well. the advantage is that you can filter at ambient. being as ambient at the moment is around 5 degrees i have put that idea on hold as i am working outside. the winter is not the time to experiment with oil, what with the wind and the rain.
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Mmm lister powered everything, awesome :) I'm not envious honest!
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Yes, it was a bit weird - one side was perfect. The other side was f'ked!
No, she's on veggy oil at the moment. If I'm going to run WMO, then I want a centrifuge.
And thanks for the offer photoman, but I'm off back to work next week for 6 whole weeks so unfortunately Lizzie is going to have a little break.
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no problem i am not likely to be doing anything with it before then anyway. give me a shout when you have time to play again and i will get it to you. if you have a lathe you could fit the other half coupling and fit the pump to the motor if you want. i wont get around to it till next spring anyway.
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Jolly good. :D
I see no reason why you couldn't run a Lister on WMO - just be prepared for a little more maintenance, and I think adding a centrifuge for the oil before going into a feed tank for the Lister would probably help somewhat.
I'm getting a fuel consumption value of just about 300g/kWh (excluding heat recovered) which is really very good. The Internet seems to suggest about 500g/kWh. By comparison, a modern medium speed CAT diesel (it's the only figure I can remember off the top of my head) uses about 230g/kWh. Admittedly that's at 200kW.
I have a 5kW UPS that I've acquired. I'd like to hook it up to the Lister so I can run at full load for a few hours a day - generate all my hot water and electricity in that time. When I stop the Lister, the UPS then takes over.
What rpm are you running the lister at? Ken B. has suggested that running at different rpms gives reasonable differences in efficiency (as you would imagine) however, i forget what the sweet spot was.
WMO -
I think ive mentioned before, but Spencer (the lister chap, who pops up on the various forums) found exhaust valve and bore ware when running off WMO, but not ware to the pre-combustion areas, suggesting that the products of combustion were abrasive. This would tie in with the reports ive read of the white ash found in (non engine) WMO burners.
If all the above is true, i would wonder as to the additive packages, specifically, the PH buffers (but im sure ive spoken with you about this before??) and am wondering if -
you have a solution?
or thats what causing you hesitation with the wmo?
or something else? : )
Julian
...who's lister, 5kw PMA, and 2.5kw GTI are all just sitting in storage : (
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What rpm are you running the lister at? Ken B. has suggested that running at different rpms gives reasonable differences in efficiency (as you would imagine) however, i forget what the sweet spot was.
650. Changing the RPM isn't really much of an option. I'm using a 5kW alternator at 3000rpm without an AVR - a few rpm difference on the Lister causes quite a change in output voltage.
It's actually quite handy. Provided a large portion of the driven load is resistive then it self regulates as it approaches full power. RPM drops, voltage drops, supplied power drops. Doesn't work on motors though.
It's not so much the ash I'm worried about, it's the metal particulates. WMO is full of them and I don't really want that going through my injection pump/injector.
I'm not sure where this ash comes from, or what it's composition is. I'm interested to find out...
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Hmm.. i wonder how ken was doing it, as im sure he just had one of those ST heads, and i cant think he sorted out a load of gearing.
As i recall, he was going down to not far off 300. Ive found (on very light testing, without loading) that mine seems to get less stable below 400.
Keep an eye on the whole ash thing - Spencer (just his nick) seems to fall out with people on so many forums, but what he says (as opposed to the way he says it, some of the time) seems to make some sense.
Aren't the ph buffers calcium compounds? I cant think that theyre that great when removed (by combustion) from the hydrocarbon.
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Hmm.. i wonder how ken was doing it, as im sure he just had one of those ST heads, and i cant think he sorted out a load of gearing.
As i recall, he was going down to not far off 300. Ive found (on very light testing, without loading) that mine seems to get less stable below 400.
Keep an eye on the whole ash thing - Spencer (just his nick) seems to fall out with people on so many forums, but what he says (as opposed to the way he says it, some of the time) seems to make some sense.
Aren't the ph buffers calcium compounds? I cant think that theyre that great when removed (by combustion) from the hydrocarbon.
is spencer the nick of jeremy, janananda? used to be on VOD till someone upset him? if so what he says does make a lot of sense.
i did find a link to using sodium sulphate to clear particulates from wmo. havent tried it yet so dont know if it works.
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Hmm.. i wonder how ken was doing it, as im sure he just had one of those ST heads, and i cant think he sorted out a load of gearing.
As i recall, he was going down to not far off 300. Ive found (on very light testing, without loading) that mine seems to get less stable below 400.
You can rectify to DC (or generate DC directly) then invert to AC. I can just about pull 4kW at 650rpm - at 300 you're going to be generating less than half that - maybe 1.5kW. Not an option for me if I want a cuppa!
You also need to be mindful of the hydrodynamic wedge lubricating the bearings. Too slow and it'll wreck the bearings. A back of envelope calculation suggests 400 rpm as a minimum running speed for a 2" crankshaft. That's by no means gospel - I'm using 'about right' figures from what I know about much larger rotating shafts to work it out.
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Spencer(4 numbers) is not our american friend. The chap im talking of is uk based - which may account for the break down in communications that i see on some of the US forums? : )
My issue with generating at higher output is that i am planning on using the grid tie inverter, and then, any overproduction is just 'wasted' (flows back into grid). (edit: from the comments below, it seems that there will never be any point in running the engine unless the cnc machine or reactor are fired up)
Our load at the moment, as im typing this, is 129watts (or there abouts - accuracy of the OWL monitor is questionable)
All our cooking is done on the solid fuel rayburn, as is our heating (except for the morning toast / brew, as its not hot enough quick enough). The high energy things are my CNC machine, when its milling, and the reactor on demeth (pre-heat has been / will be from the rayburn).
Your post has got me wondering if we shouldnt just get a big ups and save the standing charge!
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It is just possible that if the lister is running CHP then the legacy RHi that comes in in June next year may be available.
Reckless if yours is an 8.1 the design rpm of that is 800 I think rather than 650. My lister with over 10000 hours in my ownership runs at around 500 rpm and outputs 2kw to the GTI. When it has just been services the voltage is reasonably stable at around 300v DC.
The main problem that I experience, other than coking up is the nozel in the injector sticking. This causes poor starting but is easily fixed. Mine starts and runs on veg.
When the 'new' som is operational I will have to run that at 800 but I will rectify and smooth the AC to get my nominal 300v DC for the GTI Not sure how to smooth it yet though, can't find how to calculate the capacitor value to get less than 5% ripple.
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Not sure how to smooth it yet though, can't find how to calculate the capacitor value to get less than 5% ripple.
At what loading? I think I can work that out for you.
Mine's definitely a 6-1!
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Not sure how to smooth it yet though, can't find how to calculate the capacitor value to get less than 5% ripple.
At what loading? I think I can work that out for you.
Mine's definitely a 6-1!
I assumed 8.1 as you have a 5kW alt. the 6.1 is usually 2.5kW. What output do you get?
Thanks for the calc offer. The loading will be 2kW. It is very easy to set the load with the GTI, providing the system can deliver it, you can just dial in the output you want and it will deliver it regardless of the voltage, within reason. My GTI has stable output between 600 and 220V DC.
I will be using a bridge rectifier on the standard 240V alternator. The frequency is not particularly stable on the SOMs neither, for that matter, is the voltage! The smoother the output the better from the GTI point of view.
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Yes, my alternator is oversized. It was free, so I can't complain.
6hp roughly equates to 4.5kw. I can just about pull 4kw measured electrical - but the fuel rack is fully over and there's a lot of smoke! 3kw is what I consider full realistic load at constant duty.
Done the maths. I assumed a frequency of 50hz, and gone with worst case assumptions so the resulting value will be oversized. I got 10,000µF.
I've got an old broken UPS at home with some big caps. I'll see if they're anything like the right rating - if they're OK I'll stick them in the post to you.
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Yes, my alternator is oversized. It was free, so I can't complain.
6hp roughly equates to 4.5kw. I can just about pull 4kw measured electrical - but the fuel rack is fully over and there's a lot of smoke! 3kw is what I consider full realistic load at constant duty.
Done the maths. I assumed a frequency of 50hz, and gone with worst case assumptions so the resulting value will be oversized. I got 10,000µF.
I've got an old broken UPS at home with some big caps. I'll see if they're anything like the right rating - if they're OK I'll stick them in the post to you.
That makes sense for the power, I have not tried mine over 2.5 as that is the maximum GTI rating over a short period.
Thanks for the cap offer. I have a spare main bearing housing if you want one, as a swap for the cap, to replace your split one. I assume it is the same fitting as a normal one?
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Yes, my alternator is oversized. It was free, so I can't complain.
6hp roughly equates to 4.5kw. I can just about pull 4kw measured electrical - but the fuel rack is fully over and there's a lot of smoke! 3kw is what I consider full realistic load at constant duty.
Done the maths. I assumed a frequency of 50hz, and gone with worst case assumptions so the resulting value will be oversized. I got 10,000µF.
I've got an old broken UPS at home with some big caps. I'll see if they're anything like the right rating - if they're OK I'll stick them in the post to you.
That makes sense for the power, I have not tried mine over 2.5 as that is the maximum GTI rating over a short period.
Thanks for the cap offer. I have a spare main bearing housing if you want one, as a swap for the cap, to replace your split one. I assume it is the same fitting as a normal one?
i may have some caps if you need them. away ATM will check when i get back.
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Yes, my alternator is oversized. It was free, so I can't complain.
6hp roughly equates to 4.5kw. I can just about pull 4kw measured electrical - but the fuel rack is fully over and there's a lot of smoke! 3kw is what I consider full realistic load at constant duty.
Done the maths. I assumed a frequency of 50hz, and gone with worst case assumptions so the resulting value will be oversized. I got 10,000µF.
I've got an old broken UPS at home with some big caps. I'll see if they're anything like the right rating - if they're OK I'll stick them in the post to you.
That makes sense for the power, I have not tried mine over 2.5 as that is the maximum GTI rating over a short period.
Thanks for the cap offer. I have a spare main bearing housing if you want one, as a swap for the cap, to replace your split one. I assume it is the same fitting as a normal one?
i may have some caps if you need them. away ATM will check when i get back.
Thanks for that.
Dick