Biopowered - vegetable oil and biodiesel forum
General => Chatter => Topic started by: endorfin on March 22, 2013, 09:13:43 PM
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Posting here as well due to the restricted access on VOD.
I had someone swap a Lucas pump for a Bosch (supplied by me) on my Citroen BX 1.7TD XUD.
Very knowledgeable chap, everything went smoothly, cambelt, waterpump, injectors and pipes and pump. Started it up and it ran, but wouldn't rev. It seems to be a problem with the throttle mechanism on the pump, pushing the lever has no effect.
The guy has run out of time and is unable to help me any further, I can't really complain as he didn't charge for the work and it's not his fault the pump turned out to be faulty, but it leaves me high and dry as I'm now stuck in North Wales.
Has anyone had any experience of a Bosch pump failing in this way? When you move the mechanism you can feel a sort of resistance halfway along. Do you know if it can be fixed or is it very specialised?
The other option is to get another pump and I can swap them over now that everything is in place for Bosch and it's still easily accessible.
Hopefully can get an answer before the forum goes down again!
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Hi chap you might be able to get this guy to post his pump to you?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Citroen-BX-1-9TD-spares-or-repair-PERFECT-WORKING-ORDER-/321090432591
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I'm sure I read about someone else having this problem,
and from memory they had taken the lever off and put it back in the wrong position,
I could be completely wrong but it may be worth a shot.
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Have a look at this, is will give you an idea of what goes on inside, I have made the assumption that a citroen BX uses a bosch VE piump
http://306oc.co.uk/forum/thread-79.html
I would assume the governor is to blame
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first impression i get is as you did a major refit it may have air in the pipes / system, hence no revving... sometomes takes abit to pull through...
i have done this convertion twice now, couple other things to check is did he move the 3x injection pump locating / holding screws round to the next position on the mounting plate before fitting? lucas 3x studs are in the wrong place for a bosch. (move studs about an inch over) to next holes position.
also have you got the fuel in / out in the right place? for a lucas they will be at the wrong ends of the pump. so need to be swapped round...
did you lock the crank behind the starter motor before lucas removal? aswell as the camshaft locking bolt?
was the bosch pump locked off with 2x bolts to hold position for swapping? or was it free? could be 180 out (although not sure on this) the position it needs to be at cant be held by hand due to hydraulic action inside.
but it sounds like a pump failiure, was it working when removed?
did you connect waxstat? this can alter the tone / running
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Paul, you cant get the pump 180° out, as long as all locking pins are in (crank, cam and pump) it'll be lined up.
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Paul, you cant get the pump 180° out, as long as all locking pins are in (crank, cam and pump) it'll be lined up.
if all locks are in fine before action, but as long as pump cant be out 180 thats kool, as i wasnt sure on that part...
although if i remeber to swap pumps the pulley has to come off for removal from mounting bracket, so would need to locate bolts after fitting back in.
i have removed bracket once with pump still fitted and another time pump only, pump only needs studs moved round.
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first impression i get is as you did a major refit it may have air in the pipes / system, hence no revving... sometomes takes abit to pull through...
i have done this convertion twice now, couple other things to check is did he move the 3x injection pump locating / holding screws round to the next position on the mounting plate before fitting? lucas 3x studs are in the wrong place for a bosch. (move studs about an inch over) to next holes position.
also have you got the fuel in / out in the right place? for a lucas they will be at the wrong ends of the pump. so need to be swapped round...
did you lock the crank behind the starter motor before lucas removal? aswell as the camshaft locking bolt?
was the bosch pump locked off with 2x bolts to hold position for swapping? or was it free? could be 180 out (although not sure on this) the position it needs to be at cant be held by hand due to hydraulic action inside.
but it sounds like a pump failiure, was it working when removed?
did you connect waxstat? this can alter the tone / running
Yes it was all done correctly, the guy who did it was very experienced, from over on the XM forum, has done lots of these. The car runs perfectly, just won't rev when you move the control lever, it does seem like a mechanical problem.
I bought the pump off ebay for £1 with no description or history so could have been faulty. It was poorly packaged so could have been damaged in transit?
alski off VOD has offered me a pump off a 1.9 Xantia, going to have a look at that in a moment, am I right that a non turbo pump can't be used on a turbo engine? Anyone know if the control lever can be removed to investigate the problem, maybe swap the parts over?
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i vwouldnt think a non turbo would be good for a turbo, maybe different injector pressures to start with... like lucas are 130 bar or something and bosch are 175bar if i remeber rightly...
sorry not stripped a pump.
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You can run a non-turbo pump in a turbo system, but obviously you don't get the boost (fuel economy will be great though!).
It is possible you could swap the pump tops over to get the boost compensator, but the opportunity for cacking it up would be present.
It does sound like your £1 pump has already been fiddled with by someone.
Incidentally Olivier had his bosch pump turbo compensator off and took the control rod out that goes down into the pump. When he put it back together it had resistance to the throttle arm movement and wouldn't rev.
The solution was to hold the throttle open when inserting the control rod back into place.
I'll ask him to post about it here as maybe this is what is up with your pump. In which case it'd be an easy fix.
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Nigel make sure the Xantia pump it from an early car without EGR,
as the latter ones have electronic timing advance and will never be able to set properly (I made this mistake myself).
Non turbo Xantia's have a lucas pump I believe.
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Re injector pressures
the lucas ones are 125bar if i remember correctly. they will work with a bosch pump but you will have to retard the timing.
the bosch ones are 130 bar for the N/A and 175 bar for the TD engines in my experience.
if the engine starts and ticks over properly then the fuel and timing are fine.
I would have to assume that someone has taken the top off the pump and not slotted the governor back into the cradle. upon reassembly.
and stay away from the semi ECU models as mentioned above.
Ideally you want a pump with only one wire for the fuel cut off solenoid
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Mark
It seems the pump I've got from Alski is a semi electronic one, it's got armour on it. Does this mean it's a no go?
Also the Bosch pump that has been fitted, I think may also be a semi electronic with armour already removed, it's gone two electrical connectors and a load potentiometer at the top.
Would this explain the problem I've been having?
I'm in the process now of removing the armour of the new pump I got, am I wasting my time?
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ARe you trying to run her on veg or pump diesel?
It may well be the pump, but I would try to eliminate every other possibility before I came to that conclusion.
Get a feed of pump diesel going directly into the pump to start off with, then see what happens.
Some vehicles can be utter swines to bleed, and if your on veg, your adding another potential problem.
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you have nothing to loose. take the top off it and examine
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Mark
It seems the pump I've got from Alski is a semi electronic one, it's got armour on it. Does this mean it's a no go?
Also the Bosch pump that has been fitted, I think may also be a semi electronic with armour already removed, it's gone two electrical connectors and a load potentiometer at the top.
Would this explain the problem I've been having?
I'm in the process now of removing the armour of the new pump I got, am I wasting my time?
the armour is protecting an immobiliser (underneath it is a standard stop solenoid and a small lecy box), some fully mechanical pumps do have this.
The main thing is how many electrical conetins it's got (the plug-in type), if it's just one you should be fine as this will be the immobiliser.
If it's three it'll be one for the immobiliser, one for and egr valve actuator switch (load potentiometer) and one fr the electronic cold start advance.
you say yours has two, now I think it's likely that the immobiliser one has been removed.
Now for the bad bit, I think the pump you have is the wrong one.
You need a fully mechanical one, it doesn't matter if it has an immobiliser (just remove it).
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This is the pump from Alski - I removed the armour yesterday:
(http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii500/endorfin74/20130324_113102_zps363525ce.jpg)
(http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii500/endorfin74/20130324_113116_zps7df25362.jpg)
This is the pump currently on the car that won't rev:
(http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii500/endorfin74/20130324_113640_zpsc0888485.jpg)
(http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii500/endorfin74/20130324_113704_zpsc7d15a36.jpg)
The car has only pump diesel in the tank, never had any veg yet. Will run fine but does not rev when you move the control arm.
Mark, can you explain why it could be the wrong pump and what you mean by never getting the timing right, I took it to my brother's garage to get the armour removed, he says there's no reason why it won't work and that he has fitted several of these later types of pump to older cars and they've been fine?
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I don't know enough about it all to suggest much. The fact that it will start up and tick over suggests that it is not an issue with something like an immobiliser, but I would be making sure that all the electrical feeds are getting power. Can't help much more.
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So when its ticking over does it smoke? or it it just ticking over nicely? I really do think the Governor spring has come out of its cradle
But the pump does not look like its been open... hmm
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Can anyone identify the variant of the pumps I've posted up are they semi electronic?
The new pump has been put on it coughs but won't fire up black smoke coming out of the exhaust. If it's a semi electronic does it mean there is no way it will run? I keep getting conflicting advice, some say if it's fully retarded it will work others say it can't be done without an ECU.
For the record the only electrical connector is a brown 3 pin leading to underneath the pump.
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Part numbers on both pumps are exactly the same:
460 494 427
601-2
XUD BP 02
The first one fired and ran but wouldn't rev with control lever
The second one, can't get it to run at all, black smoke coming out.
My question is, if these are the dreaded AS3 semi electronic then I wouldn't have got the first one to run at all? So ergo they can't be the semi electronic pump....I reason hopefully.
Help please...seriously running out of time, VOD is completely down when I need it most and my hands are frozen solid.
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Got it running!
But not running properly, it cuts out when you try to rev it. Sounds like a tractor!
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Nigel, sorry I've not got back to you sooner, been out all day.
The reason why the semi electronic pumps aren't good is the timing is partly electronically controlled,
when I fitted one to a 405td (pump was of a 406td) it ran but had bad diesel knock no matter how far I retarded the timing.
From what I remember the wire that goes underneath is for the cold start advance.
So in short this should not stop it from running/revving.
If you're getting black smoke out the back then fuel is getting through to the injectors, it may just be the timing that's out now.
Have you checked that all the pump/crank/cam timing is right (do all the locking pins go in).
While the VOD is down you could try http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/ their pretty good on there and should be of some help.
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The car is all put back together, it's running fine but still has the problem where if you rev it high when it comes back to idle it then cuts out unless you rev it again to prevent that. We have tried various positions, retarding and advancing the timing which is how we got it running in the first place but none of this cures the problem of it cutting out after revving high.
Is there anyone that knows which variant of the pump this is from the photos/description/part numbers given?
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Does the pump have a cold start advance mechanism on the side? This could be too retarded from cold which can lead to stalling and smoke.
I presume there is also an idle stop for the throttle lever - what if you increase idle?
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have you tried simple basic stuff, blocked gauze under inlet banjo? filter?, tank strainer?
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alski's pump looks the part ecu controlled one, (was that electronic black box under the armour?) like a 406TD, which is like mine.
your first one looked the old type, but i guess not a working pump...
so have you got a turbo pump on a non turbo 1700 ? this may not help matters...
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It sounds like you need to adjust the anti stall,
you'll see two screws on engine side of the pump,
the left hand one is cold tickover, the right hand one is anti stall setting.
Yes it looks like a later 1.9 XUD turbo pump from a 406, Xantia, 306 ect.
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What a weekend! Both the Bosch pumps were identical, identical part numbers and they were semi electronic, I now know personally that they cannot be correctly timed on a non ecu car!
It would run, and drive, barely! Couldn't get it past 30mph, felt like there was no power.
Had to put the Lucas back on as couldn't source a fully mechanical Bosch. Now runs as normal. It will have to wait til I find a Bosch.
On the upside, I feel like I can now do a pump swap and cambelt change blindfold! Now where's the moisterising hand cream....
It may be useful to compile a list of the different part numbers of these pumps so we know which are which. The part numbers I put up in an earlier post are definitely for a semi electronic. Maybe there is already a list on VOD, but can't get on there.
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I'll get the part number of mine tomorrow, until then just to clarify your car is a turbo isn't it ?
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It may be worth contacting these to see if they've got a bosch pump
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1995-Peugeot-405-1-9-DT-GLX-breaking-for-spares-all-car-parts-cheap-/180978327277?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item2a23261eed
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-405-1-9TD-Style-D-Turbo-Breaking-Spares-Only-/150992043147?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item2327d3bc8b
Both of these will be non EGR fully mechanical pumps.
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prolly be better with a non turbo pump if his car is...
i have put a non turbo 1.9 off a 405 on a 1.8 205 pug...